Westley Richards Cartridge question

[tkendrick]

OK folks, I need a little help.

I have an old friend who has a pretty extensive cartridge collection, and we don't usually get into many disagreements on them, 'specially since I don't collect cartridges, but this one is driving me nuts.

He has a cartridge which is obviously a 500/450 No. 1 Express. It looks identical to the one pictured in the 7th Edition of Cartridges of the World, right down to and including the paper patching. We have not been able to find a complete drawing w/ dimensions of that cartridge, but the few measurements we have match.

Now, here's the kicker. The Base of the cartridge is stamped W R A Co
No 1 EXPRESS. The No 1 is reversed (or upside down) compared to the rest of the text.

My friend says that this cartridge can't exist because WRA stands for Winchester Repeating ARms, and they never loaded this cartridge because it is "a british cartridge". (Don't know why he thinks he knows this)

I don't know anything about collecting cartridges. I just worry about making sure what I buy fits in my gun.

But I have two thoughts on this.

1. I don't know how popular the No1 Express was, but it would seem to me that since it around in the BP days, and would have been a good buffalo round, there is a pretty good chance that Winchester might have made this cartridge.

2. Thought No 2 was that WRA could stand for Westley Richards Arms. After all, they were around before Winchester, I think, and I don't know that at that time in history they would have been too concerned about copyrights and the like, especially if they were going after the European or African market.

My buddy has told me in no uncertain terms that Westley Richards never made or marketed ammo under their own name.

In his mind, this cartridge can't be a 500/450 No1 because of the above 2 arguements. He's convinced he's got some super rare Winchester experimental thing.:banghead:

Can anyone out there provide me with any way to prove to him that either Winchester or Westley Richards could have made this thing? And I'll need PROOF, he's too pig-headed stubborn to believe anything that's not in writing.

(Of course, he'll believe anything written in any published magazine, but that's another story)

BTW this is reeeeeeealy important, because

I've got a cup of Starbuck's riding on it.

 

[SDC]

Does the round look like this: http://www.ammo-one.com/500450No1WR.html ? It's possible that the headstamp is being misread, with the "&" being mistaken for an "A". Westley Richards produced firearms full time, but nothing would have stopped them from having ammunition made FOR them (if you go to their website today, they sell this round for around $100 for a 5-round box; http://www.westleyrichards.com/gun/ammo_metal.html ). Likewise, if Winchester saw a possible market, there's no reason they wouldn't have made this round, but I doubt if there was any reason for them to; this is really a round for African hunters, and I doubt if there would be enough US hunters interested in that round when there were more suitable modern (well, MORE modern) cartridges available in the US with less hassle. Lastly, if either Winchester or Westley Richards DID make this round, someone at the IAA forum will definitely be able to tell you the way they were marked; http://cartridgecollectors.org/forumintro.htm

 

[Jim K]

I think there is a false assumption here that Winchester made cartridges only for the American market. They were an international company and their products, arms and ammunition, were sold all over the world. Would they have made a cartridge for the British colonial (African) market? Sure, if there was money to be made. Did they? I don't know, but you may be looking at proof they did.

Jim

 

[Jim Watson]

Westley Richards Arms Co. is not the correct name, it is Westley Richards & Co., Ltd. and that does not fit the headstamp. I figure it is a Winchester product.

 

[tkendrick]

SDC I pulled the first link, and I think that you've hit the nail on the head.

The one time I looked at the thing I was having a real hard time reading the head stamp, it's pretty faint. I didn't have my reading glasses, and my buddy is loosing his eyesight due to diabetes.

That picture looks exactly like his cartridge, near as I recall, except for the "&" being where we are seeing an "A".

My guess is that we are seeing an A where it actually is an &. I'll be driving over there sometime later this week, and I'll see if I cant rub some chalk or something on the stamp and try and pull it out a little better, and I'll make sure to take my glasses with me.

"BIG SIGH" This getting old is a pain in the butt.

At least I think I'm gonna get a cup of coffee out of it.

 

[tkendrick]

UPDATE

Ran some chalk over the headstamp, put on my reading glasses and there it was.


SDC many thanks. You had it dead on.

 

[BigG]

The British cartridges are normally marked Kynoch or Eley - most of the arms makers did not make their own ammo. Those firms did.