What’s wrong with brandishing?

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October

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I’m not a CCW, so what I know about concealed carry I’ve learned from reading this message board. And the impression I’ve gotten is that a concealed weapon should not be drawn unless the user is prepared to shoot, i.e., there is an immediate danger.

We know that firearms thwart as many as 2.5 million crimes per year. In most of those cases, the gun is not fired – it is merely shown that the intended victim has the means to defend themselves. And that leaves me wondering – how many additional crimes could firearms thwart if they were brought into play well before the danger is immediate?

I’ve read numerous anecdotes on this board of confrontations that were ended when it was made known that a firearm was part of the equation. In some cases, the poster even acknowledged that they were “brandishing” the firearm, since the conflict had not risen to the “fear for life” level. But I would argue that outcome is more desirable (for all parties involved) than one where deadly force was called for.

So, why is brandishing a weapon illegal in so many jurisdictions? It would seem that responsible brandishing could result is de-escalating a situation that might otherwise escalate to a situation calling for the justified use of deadly force.
 
“brandishing” the firearm, since the conflict had not risen to the “fear for life” level

As always, state specific, but in Texas brandishing is not defined that way.

There is statute to permit the drawing of a weapon as a deterrent, even in situations where deadly force is not yet justified.

As to your question of why it's not like that everywhere, it sure makes no sense to me.
 
There is a fine line between what should be done and what could be done in many things in life.

If brandishing was legal, it could possibly be used well beyond a life threatening deterrent factor and get a bit out of hand in some instances.

We have been given the right to defend our lives and to brandish a firearm for anything less is not in the cards.

NOW, if your life is threatened and a display of a firearm stops the threat, I personally feel it is quite alright. I would much rather face the music of brandishing than face the music of firing a gun at another person no matter if I am perfectly justified to do so. That music could be a form of acid rock where brandishing and stopping the threat may turn out to be nothing more than a classical tune. Still music but at least it stands a chance of not busting your eardrums.

That is an unwritten law that every individual has to decide for his or her self.

It can also be stated that if you draw and don't fire, you stand a much better chance of being disarmed and the tables turned on you. Again, a personal decision.
 
It depends on how your state law defines brandishing. In most place, brandishing is when you're being the aggressor and holding a firearm in such a way as to threaten or intimidate someone who isn't physically threatening you. Simply displaying a firearm or holding it in your hand pointed in a safe direction as a subtle warning is not brandishing. Also, pointing a firearm at someone who is physically threatening you is valid self-defense and is also not brandishing.
 
The answer is fairly simple: Brandishing a firearm in a threatening manner can, and probably will be, interpreted as a threat of deadly force. Ask yourself, why would you do such a thing if your own life was not being threatened? Pulling a firearm in response to a less-than-life-threatening event is escalating the level of force to deadly force.

When you escalate the level of force, you become responsible for that escalation, despite previous circumstances which may or may not have been to the contrary.
 
RNB65 said:
Simply displaying a firearm or holding it in your hand pointed in a safe direction as a subtle warning...

That would be considered a threat to use it and qualify as brandishing around here.

+1 to RavenVT100
 
RavenVT100 said:
The answer is fairly simple: Brandishing a firearm in a threatening manner can, and probably will be, interpreted as a threat of deadly force.

I would hope so. If it isn’t, there is a lack of communication going on in the confrontation.

Ask yourself, why would you do such a thing if your own life was not being threatened?
Because:
1. I know there are situations that can go from non-threatening to threatening faster than a CCW can pull a concealed weapon.
2. The intentions of a party that is being aggressive are unknown. That aggression may escalate simply because the aggressor believes his target has no way of stopping it. Showing a weapon corrects that mistaken belief – before things get out of hand.

Pulling a firearm in response to a less-than-life-threatening event is escalating the level of force to deadly force.

I disagree. While it is an escalation, it doesn’t rise to the level of deadly force until the trigger is pulled. Showing the weapon merely makes it known that you have the ability to employ deadly force – something that was probably not thought to be the case by the other party prior to the appearance of the weapon.

When you escalate the level of force, you become responsible for that escalation, despite previous circumstances which may or may not have been to the contrary.

I agree. However, you still have not yet employed deadly force – merely demonstrated that you have the means to do so. In my mind, responsible brandishing still leaves it up to the other party to decide whether to escalate the situation to the point where deadly force actually needs to be employed.

Being issued a CCW means you are trusted to use deadly force in a responsible manner. I would think the same logic could be applied to using responsible brandishing.
 
I agree with October. I have brandished a gun (more than once) and pistol whupped folks. If I can get the job done without holeing a man, I will.

Biker
 
That would be considered a threat to use it and qualify as brandishing around here.

Why so?

Here's the legal definition of brandishing in VA:

A. It shall be unlawful for any person to point, hold or brandish any firearm or any air or gas operated weapon or any object similar in appearance, whether capable of being fired or not, in such manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another or hold a firearm or any air or gas operated weapon in a public place in such a manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another of being shot or injured. However, this section shall not apply to any person engaged in excusable or justifiable self-defense.

Example, if there is a disturbance occurring in the street in front of my house and I'm standing on my front porch holding a weapon pointed in a safe direction as a subtle warning that the the disturbance better not enter my property, I'm not committing brandishing under VA law.
 
The difference between a potential life threatening situation and a life threatening situation is sometimes in the articulation

If I can convince the people that matter that I was reasonably in fear for my life at the time even though hindsight shows differently it may not be considered brandishing
 
brandishing aint easy to define

RNB65 - you might want to reconsider your assertions. See the following (with emphasis added):

Brandishing a Deadly Weapon In Defense of Personal Property is A Criminal Act

Jon Douglas Alexander v. Commonwealth of Virginia (2000)


"In this appeal, we decide whether a deadly weapon may be brandished in defense of personal property.
Jon Douglas Alexander was charged with attempted murder in Rockbridge County. At a preliminary hearing on that charge, the general district court reduced the charge to that of brandishing a firearm in violation of Code §18.2-282 and convicted defendant Alexander of that charge.

Michael T. Eustler, an agent of the lien holder of the defendant's vehicle, sought to repossess the vehicle. When Eustler arrived at the defendant's home, the defendant agreed to its repossession provided he could remove certain papers and tools valuable to him and having nothing to do with the vehicle being repossessed.

Although Eustler agreed to permit the defendant to retrieve the items, Eustler "jacked up" the vehicle as the defendant was partially in the front seat. Eustler approached the defendant in a belligerent manner, and demanded the keys to the vehicle. Feeling threatened, the defendant entered his house and emerged with the keys as well as an unloaded rifle which he placed in a flower bed that was close to the vehicle. When Eustler again approached in a belligerent manner, the defendant retrieved the rifle and held it at his side. The defendant felt compelled to raise the rifle to his shoulder when he thought that Eustler was going to assault him. However, the defendant did not point the gun at Eustler until Eustler kept coming at him, at which time, Eustler "finally backed off." Eustler later called the police.

We need not resolve the defendant's claim that Eustler's actions were "unwarranted and illegal . . . in attempting, by other than peaceful means, to unlawfully take [defendant's] personal property." Even if Eutsler's actions were unwarranted or illegal, the defendant, as an owner of personal property, did not have the right to assert or defend his possessory rights thereto by the use of deadly force. In Montgomery v. Commonwealth, 98 Va. 840, 842-43, 36 S.E. 371, 372 (1900), we said:

The law is clearly stated by a learned judge in State v. Morgan, 3 Ired. 186, 38 Am. Dec. 714, as follows: "When it is said that a man may rightfully use as much force as is necessary for the protection of his person and property, it should be recollected that this rule is subject to this most important modification, that he shall not, except in extreme cases, endanger human life or do great bodily harm. It is not every right of person, and still less of property, that can lawfully be asserted, or every wrong that may rightfully be redressed by extreme remedies.

There is a recklessness-a wanton disregard of humanity and social duty in taking or endeavoring to take, the life of a fellow-being, in order to save one's self from a comparatively slight wrong, which is essentially wicked, and the law abhors. You may not kill, because you cannot otherwise effect your object, although the object sought to be effected is right. You can only kill to save life or limb, or prevent a great crime, or to accomplish a necessary public duty." See, also, 1 Bishop on New C. L., secs. 839, 841, 850. However, the defendant contends, and the Court of Appeals held, that these principles do not apply when there is a mere threat to use deadly force in protection of personal property. We do not agree.

The threat to use deadly force by brandishing a deadly weapon has long been considered an assault. Harper v. Commonwealth, 196 Va. 723, 733, 85 S.E.2d 249, 255 (1955). In Merritt v. Commonwealth, 164 Va. 653, 658-59, 180 S.E. 395, 398 (1935), we said:

Judge Moncure, in the Hardy Case, 17 Gratt. (58 Va.) 592, 600, [1867] quoted with approval from an old English case, thus: "An assault is any attempt or offer with force or violence to do a corporeal hurt to another, whether from malice or wantonness, as by striking at him in a threatening or insulting manner, or with such other circumstances as denote at the time an intention, coupled with a present ability, of actual violence against his person, as by pointing a weapon at him when he is within reach of it."Such a threat may give the threatened person a right to defend himself by the use of a deadly weapon. McGhee v. Commonwealth, 219 Va. 560, 562, 248 S.E.2d 808, 810 (1978). Further, as the dissenting opinion of the Court of Appeals notes, "[p]ermitting one to threaten to use deadly force leads in dangerous progression to an unacceptable conclusion. Here, the victim would have been entitled to use deadly force to repel the perceived threat." 28 Va. App. at 780, 508 S.E.2d at 916 (Judge Bumgardner, dissenting); 30 Va. App. at 153, 515 S.E.2d at 808 (en banc) (Judge Bumgardner, with whom Chief Judge Fitzpatrick joins, dissenting). Moreover, the owner of land has no right to assault a mere trespasser with a deadly weapon. Montgomery, 98 Va. at 844, 36 S.E. at 373. Indeed, in Montgomery, it was the landowner's brandishing of a sharpened corn-cutter that provoked the defendant's physical assertion of his right of self-defense. 98 Va. at 841-43, 36 S.E. at 372-73. For these reasons, we agree with the trial court that a deadly weapon may not be brandished solely in defense of personal property. Therefore, we conclude that the Court of Appeals erred in reversing the trial court's judgment. "

See Also: Donovan Payne Morris v. Commonwealth (2005)

"We disagree with Morris. "Brandish" means "to exhibit or expose in an ostentatious, shameless, or aggressive manner." Webster's Third New International Dictionary, 268 (1993). When Morris looked at Ms. Molina, said "[he'd] like that," and then pulled up his shirt to uncover the flare gun, he exhibited or exposed the weapon in a shameless or aggressive manner. And Morris brandished the weapon in such a manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of Peter Molina. Although Molina may not have said he was in fear for his own safety, he stated unequivocally that he feared for the safety of his wife, and that is sufficient to prove the "induced fear" element of a conviction for brandishing a firearm under Code 18.2-282."


That's how the court sees brandishing in Virginia. IANAL, but I feel fairly certain that your openly holding a gun while on your porch, waiting to see if the disturbance comes up the street & onto your property, would get you a free ride in the police car.

stay safe.

skidmark
 
Because in MOST states it's illegal, You ONLY present your firearm when:
1) you feel your life or the life of someone you're with is in "Immanent Danger"
2) If someone else's life is in "Immanent Danger"
 
Utah's statute:

Every person, except those persons described in Section 76-10-503, who, not in necessary self defense in the presence of two or more persons, draws or exhibits any dangerous weapon in an angry and threatening manner or unlawfully uses the same in any fight or quarrel is guilty of a class A misdemeanor.

Emphasis added.
 
on pratical anot leagle terms

if you draw your weapon (brandish) without the will or intent to use it, it is a good way to get yourself shot. don't pull a weapon with the idea that the other guy will back down, if he does great but going into it with that mind set can get you hurt.
 
RNB65 - you might want to reconsider your assertions. See the following (with emphasis added)

I think I'm correct because the circumstances are different. In the case cited, Alexander felt threatened by Eustler's aggressive and belligerent behavior and responded by pointing a rifle at him. I agree with the court's ruling that he committed brandishing by pointing the rifle as he was clearly trying to induce fear in Eustler. If Alexander had left the rifle in the flower bed where he originally placed it and not pointed it at Eustler, I suspect he would not have been charged.

In the situation I described, not one is being threatened and no guns are being pointed. I'm simply standing on my porch holding a gun in a safe, non-threatening manner to let the people causing the disturbance know that I'm prepared to defend myself if necessary. I wouldn't hesitate to do this and take my chances with law enforcement.
 
As I see it (after reading various state laws)...

Brandishing is waving your gun around at a lesser threat (or no threat for that matter).

If someone is coming at you with knife in hand, pulling your firearm wouldn't be brandishing.
 
RNB65, I believe that the situation you describe may be considered brandishing, though it would ulitimately have to be decided by a jury.

The statute does not say it has to be pointed, it only has to be able to:

reasonably induce fear in the mind of another or hold a firearm or any air or gas operated weapon in a public place in such a manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another of being shot or injured.

If someone saw you and was "afraid" and the jury was convinced that this was reasonable, under the circumstances, then you brandished. I am not suggesting that it is a sure thing, but that it is possible under the statute you mentioned.
 
Originally Posted by RavenVT100
The answer is fairly simple: Brandishing a firearm in a threatening manner can, and probably will be, interpreted as a threat of deadly force.

October posted: I would hope so. If it isn’t, there is a lack of communication going on in the confrontation.

Brandishing is the act of threatening someone with a weapon. Threatening someone with a weapon is a CRIME. The defense for you commiting that crime is the same defense that is used when you actually use the weapon to defend yourself. You have to show that what you did was necessary to protect your own life from a threat of deadly force by the attacker.

If you are justified in using deadly force, you are justified in brandishing. The way that usually works in practice is that you draw your weapon *with the inent of firing* and the situation changes by the time you get the weapon on target and you no longer have to fire. You draw, they surrender, for example. Or you draw, they drop the knife and run away. You were *going* to fire, but the situation changed and you you now longer *had* to fire.

That is an entirely different situation then drawing to "scare" them away when you have no intention of actually firing in the present circumstance. (Yeah, you'll fire *if* things get worse to justify it, but as of the time you drew, you weren't justified.)

October, there is something you don't understand here. Let's assume *you* are in a situation where you are not yet justified in drawing or using your firearm. You decide that since the *potentional* is there, your going to draw and brandish in an effort to "show the other guy you have the ability to use deadly force." By doing that, you have effectively *threatened* the other person WITH deadly force and THEY are now justified in using deadly force against YOU in self defense.

To give you an example: Let's say we have to interact following a minor traffic accident. You don't like the fact that I'm angry about the accident and you think I *might* escalate to violence. The situation isn't clear yet though and, under the standards of the law, I have not done anything to justify deadly force being used against me. You decide to brandish your gun to, in your mind, forestall me from being violent against you.

The problem is when you brandish, you are threatening *me* with deadly force. If you actually did that, I'd most likely draw and shoot you immediately because you just threatened me with deadly force and I'm now in a legitimate fear of my life


RavenVT posted:
Pulling a firearm in response to a less-than-life-threatening event is escalating the level of force to deadly force.

October posted: I disagree. While it is an escalation, it doesn’t rise to the level of deadly force until the trigger is pulled. Showing the weapon merely makes it known that you have the ability to employ deadly force – something that was probably not thought to be the case by the other party prior to the appearance of the weapon.

October, this is where you are wrong.

Let's lay it out: You *think* you *may* need to use your weapon to defend yourself. Obviously, the decision is not clear cut yet as you are willing to try the "intermediate" step of "brandishing" instead of just drawing and firing.

When YOU draw the weapon, you are now threatening the other person with deadly force. That *IS* an "escalation to the level of deadly force." If you threaten someone with deadly force, you've escalated the situation and now they are justified in using deadly force against *You.*

Threatening someone with a weapon is an aggressive act. By doing that, you've become the aggressor. You've given up your status as an innocent party in what happens.

RavenVt100 posted:
When you escalate the level of force, you become responsible for that escalation, despite previous circumstances which may or may not have been to the contrary.

October posted: I agree. However, you still have not yet employed deadly force – merely demonstrated that you have the means to do so.

You say, you've "merely demonstrated that you have the means to use deadly force." I say, you've just threatened the other person WITH deadly force. That escalates the situation, whether you want to admit it or not. I bet most courts would agree with me.
 
The answer is fairly simple: Brandishing a firearm in a threatening manner can, and probably will be, interpreted as a threat of deadly force. Ask yourself, why would you do such a thing if your own life was not being threatened? Pulling a firearm in response to a less-than-life-threatening event is escalating the level of force to deadly force.

When you escalate the level of force, you become responsible for that escalation, despite previous circumstances which may or may not have been to the contrary.

Not only do I find this to be an excellent, common sense look at the matter, I think it also opens up another point: judgement.

IMO, part of responsible CCW is not only situational awareness but using sound judgement in either deescalating or avoiding a situation where a firearm would be needed.

By carrying a weapon, would you use any less judgement and sense in where you go or who you associate with based solely on the fact that you have a weapon? If you were, heaven forbid, without a weapon, how would you handle the same hypothetical situation? So if today you would try to sensibly deescalate a potential situation, what would change tomorrow because you do have one? I just don't see where having a firearm should change anyones day to day routines of assesing and dealing with situations and people in general.

Call it naivete, but for me, my gun is not part of the equation; it is the answer to the equation should one occur.
 
Bad guy steps out of the bushes with a (insert weapon here or even the threat),and a says "Gimmie your dough." I pull my Makarov from my coat pocket. Bad guy sees gun, runs away. No shots fired.
Not brandishing.

I'm driving down I-95, and some numbskull cuts me off. I pull up alongside and pull my Makarov from my coat pocket. No shots fired.
brandishing.
 
I can understand brandishing out in public might not be such a good idea, but how do states view brandishing in the home after you see an intruder, especially if that intruder is not specifically threatening you. I know if I saw an intruder in my house I would immediately pull out my pistol and go from there.
 
Brandishing

Brandishing, when used to stop a threat before deadly force becomes a given is generally excuseable in jurisdictions that allow self-defense...but you'd best be prepared to prove that you did, in fact, have just cause to brandish...gauged by the same yardstick as the actual escalation of events that leads to using deadly force would be. In short...maybe a second or two before the threat has reached the stage that the reasonable man would pull the trigger. Pulling a gun is an implied death threat. Be sure that you're justified in deploying that threat.

This will vary from state to state, and possibly even from area to area within the same state. Know your laws...State and local. You're generally not held to such strictly defined requirements on your own property, and particularly within your own home...since it may be assumed that a midnight intruder isn't there to ask for a drink of water. In public, things can get a little deeper into that shady gray area that we've all come to dread. The further into your inner santum that the events occur, the more leeway you have in both the pre-shoot threat and the final decision to fire.

Brandishing as a response to public heckling and/or threatening words or gestures from a distance...or brandishing for the purpose of imtimidation will get you one phone call down at the county lockup.
 
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