Defusing a situation: Gun selection

[Yahtzee4U]

As some of you may know in Arizona it is now ok in some scenarios to "brandish" your firearm so as to defuse a potentially lethal situation.
114 / SB 1243 / §13-421

Many ccw permit holders (or non permit holders) carry small pocket pistols such as the keltecs, kahrs, bobcats/tomcats or lcp for concealed carry due to the practical ease of concealment, despite limited firepower. Do any of you think that pulling out a very small gun such as that would have an effect on the so called ability of a gun to immediately "defuse" a situation? Could it simply escalate the situation?

i.e. A sawed off double barrel shotgun has a huge intimidation effect, despite the fact that it is a very impractical gun.

This question is not stemming from a decision standpoint, a friend and I were simply discussing common guns (not a DE .50 cal) that would have more of a "intimidation" factor than others.

 

[Shadow 7D]

Um, son you're coming at this ALL wrong
and I'm sure that somebody else will clarify it, but
YOU DON'T

"brandish" your firearm so as to defuse a potentially lethal situation

You Draw to LAWFULLY PROTECT yourself and those to whom you may legally extend your protection.

As to how big a gun that is, well that's up to you and is a PERSONAL matter. at least this aint in S&T

 

[Yahtzee4U]

It was a simple question. I stand by it because the law was put into place so that a citizen could stop a POTENTIALLY lethal situation BEFORE it became a lethal situation. The phrase the law uses is "defensive display of a firearm", in the sense that you can now "display" your firearm to let some thug know you have it and will use it before he decides to charge you or draw his own weapon, proactive use, not reactive.

Shadow I understand your point, but I didn't make this law, I was asking thoughts about it's use.

 

[Kliegl]

"“Defensive display of a firearm” means:

1 – Verbally telling someone that you have a firearm or can get one;

2 – Exposing or displaying a gun in a way that a reasonable person would understand means you can protect yourself against illegal physical or deadly physical force;

3 – Placing your hand on a firearm while it is in your pocket, purse or other means of
containment or transport.

Defensive display is justified when and to the extent a reasonable person would believe physical force is immediately necessary to protect yourself against another person’s use or attempted use of unlawful physical or deadly physical force. A defensive display is not required before using or threatening physical force, in a situation where you would be justified in using or threatening physical force.

Defensive display is not justified if you intentionally provoke the other person, or if you use a firearm in the commission of a serious offense or violent crime (defined in §13-706 and §13-901.3).

This important new law clarifies that a proper defensive reach for or announcement of firearm possession is an acceptable element in the continuum of self defense, and should not be charged as a crime. Improper display of a firearm can be anything from a class 1 misdemeanor (e.g., disorderly conduct) to a class 3 felony (e.g., aggravated assault). It also helps balance out the problematic and arbitrary “threatening exhibition” of a gun allegation that prosecutors can make in charging a felony as a “dangerous offense” (§13-702 and 704). The threat of this extra charge can be used to coerce a plea agreement, and now this is balanced with a specified stipulation of proper display of a gun without firing at a potential assailant."

That's what http://www.arizonaccw.net/archives/79 says.

But, to answer your question, I think the attitude of the person means everything. Don't say you have a gun, put your hand on it, say you don't want any trouble, and if he immediately doesn't back off, draw and point it at his face. Unless it's a paintball gun or a toy gun, it will be scary.

That being said, the bigger a gun is, and the larger the caliber, the more scary it looks. Also, the longer the barrel, the more scary, in my opinion. But, those qualities do not make a good carry piece, so I wouldn't really worry about what "looks scariest."

Lastly, DO NOT get a "nickle plated nine" and hold it Homey G. Sideways Style and mention anything about "caps" "busting" or a vulgar term for one's posterior.

 

[mbt2001]

In this country it used to be that unless something was illegal it was fine to do it, now it is the reverse, if it isn't an EXCEPTION to the law, then it is illegal. The idea being that someone who drew their gun to protect themselves wouldn't be prosecuted on a technical point in the law.

 

[Shadow 7D]

Yeah, but this question makes me think of the Movie "Snatch"
the scene in the pub with bullet tooth Tony and the robbers "yours say 'REPLICA', where as mine says Desert Eagle Point Five O "

No matter how intimidating or not you weapon may be, it its worse than worthless if you are not prepared to use it. And I agree with MBT, one would think that defensive display would be covered under legal 'necessity'.

Consider the converse, say you have a small black pocket gun, would a robber realize that you had drawn a weapon if he is expecting you to be retrieving your wallet?
Or will he assume that the object (say a P32) IS your wallet until you hand him a belly full of lead instead of your cash.

 

[MedWheeler]

Yes to both. It depends on the "situation". Some would be defused simply by assertive commands. Some would not be defused even by the presentation of a shotgun. How you present is just as important, if not more so, as what you present.

Do any of you think that pulling out a very small gun such as that would have an effect on the so called ability of a gun to immediately "defuse" a situation? Could it simply escalate the situation?

 

[Mike J]

I agree with the others-If you pull a gun out you had better be willing to use it.

I don't know if you have ever had a gun pointed at you. I have had one pointed at me on a couple of occasions when I was young & it didn't matter what it was. I left. No matter how small the weapon that barrel looks huge from the wrong end.

In my opinion there are more important things we can do for self defense than carry a large intimidating looking gun. Things like situational awareness, making sure we are unattractive targets etc.

 

[Nicky Santoro]

Do any of you think that pulling out a very small gun such as that would have an effect on the so called ability of a gun to immediately "defuse" a situation? Could it simply escalate the situation?

In this situation, unlike some others, size doesn't matter. I have a friend who was robbed by two clowns carrying a .22 rifle. Pointed in his face, he said it looked as big as a sewer pipe. In the scenario described, no one is going to ask the caliber and, if not sufficiently impressed, volunteer to take a couple rounds in the beezer.

 

[Sam1911]

I think what Shadow is getting at is one of our old maxims around here:

If you draw your gun, you'd better know what you're planning to do NEXT.

Yup. Some bad guys will run away. But there are plenty of documented cases where some won't. Many thugs have been shot at before, shot before, and have the scars to show for it. And, in certain instances, there may be forces pushing them to stand up to you rather than be bluffed off.

So AZ says you may draw a gun in a "display" when force is allowable, but if you are not yet in a situation where lethal force is justified, you could be in a tight situation.

He may run. If he doesn't, what next? If you weren't justified in actually shooting him before, what exactly are you going to do with that gun now that it's out? A smart, savvy, streetwise criminal, especially supported by a few accomplices, may just make life difficult for you.

Not to say you should never use the option, or that there aren't still defensible ways out of your predicament, but don't fall into the trap of writing the script of what the other guy will do ahead of time in your own head.

 

[JoeSlomo]

Do any of you think that pulling out a very small gun such as that would have an effect on the so called ability of a gun to immediately "defuse" a situation? Could it simply escalate the situation?

Meh...

Size of the firearm is not a very significant factor IMO.

Some will base their actions on their assessment of the "victim" holding the firearm. If they perceive that the "victim" has the WILL and intent to use the firearm, then they will break off their attack. If the victim is perceived to be hesitant, unsure, and displays a lack of confidence, then they may continue to press their attack regardless of firearm.

Some will break off their attack regardless of firearm. They DON'T want to get shot. By ANYTHING.

Some will attack regardless of firearm.

 

[x_wrench]

But, to answer your question, I think the attitude of the person means everything.

i have to agree with that 100%. to some, it will mean, ok, now i have to charge. to others, it will mean, now it is time to flea. drugs will likely be an influencing factor in this. if the assailant is all hyped up on drugs, he may think he is invincable, especailly to a LCP or LCR. some would think a sawed off coach gun was a joke, as he would only have to avoid 2 shells. every situation will be different, as well as each individule. personally,(although i am no criminal) i would run at the first sign of any firearm. but to may others, i think a 45acp would be a lot more intimidating than a 380 LCP.

 

[Onward Allusion]

Yahtzee4U
Defusing a situation: Gun selection
As some of you may know in Arizona it is now ok in some scenarios to "brandish" your firearm so as to defuse a potentially lethal situation.
114 / SB 1243 / §13-421
Many ccw permit holders (or non permit holders) carry small pocket pistols such as the keltecs, kahrs, bobcats/tomcats or lcp for concealed carry due to the practical ease of concealment, despite limited firepower. Do any of you think that pulling out a very small gun such as that would have an effect on the so called ability of a gun to immediately "defuse" a situation? Could it simply escalate the situation?
i.e. A sawed off double barrel shotgun has a huge intimidation effect, despite the fact that it is a very impractical gun.
This question is not stemming from a decision standpoint, a friend and I were simply discussing common guns (not a DE .50 cal) that would have more of a "intimidation" factor than others.

Maybe I'm old school or just old with wear, but if I draw, I will be prepared to use it in a heartbeat. Maybe it's because I carry a NAA Mini or P32 regularly but I'm pretty sure I would have the same mindset if I was carrying one of my full-size hi-cap pistols.

If you can walk away from a bad situation w/o anyone getting hurt or killed, it is always a good thing. I have run across a couple of situations where I swallowed my pride and walked away. It stings the ego and I mull over it every now and then, but it's better than having me dead, a loved one dead, the other guy dead, in/out of court for what will seem like forever.

 

[bigfatdave]

This is why the word "brandish" needs to be stricken from the language, or at least from any discussion of defensive use.

Look, Yahtzee4U, the whole point is to "stop" ... I assume (hope) you've heard the concept of "shoot to stop" by now, and I hope you took a moment to think it over and understand the implications of that boiled-down simplified phrase.
But for anyone who hasn't, I'll spell it out:
You have a situation where deadly force is needed to defend you or someone you care about
You may apply deadly force up to the point where you don't need to any more
If you begin to draw and get a voluntary stop - you win
If you complete your draw and get a voluntary stop - you win
If you present and get a voluntary stop - you win
If you fire a shot, miss and get a voluntary stop - you win
If you wing the threat to your safety and get a voluntary stop - you win
If you get the mythical "one shot stop" and get a involuntary stop - you win

It isn't about "when can I get out my shooting stick" ... if you used a tire iron, car bumper, baseball bat, crossbow, falling piano, sling or pike to accomplish any of the above, you're still in the act of a lawful, justified, necessary use of deadly force.
If you use deadly force (or the threat of deadly force) to directly and immediately influence other human beings NOT presenting a threat to your well-being, you're a dirtbag.

Anyone carrying a pocket-gun has likely given thought to the lack of visual obviousness their defensive weapon presents - but derringers and other little bitty guns aren't a new concept, and a recent revision to AZ law doesn't change anything, really. If you can skillfully deploy and/or use a defensive weapon, your "victim" status will likely be revised regardless of the weapon you pick, because opportunistic predators aren't looking for a fight, they're looking for low-effort profit. There might be a very small number of these predator types who would wade into a fight with an armed victim, but what small fraction of those is really influenced by gun size? Trust me, you have more to worry about than the contingency plans that tiny fraction of muggers, rapists, and murderers when faced with a particular size/type weapon ... more important would be:
-going to the range and getting good at using that little pistol
-practicing your draw and presentation from cover with snap-caps while watching yourself in a mirror
-taking a class including the above skills and the applicable laws and ethics governing the defensive use of deadly force
or
-finding other ways to not look like a victim

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Sam1911: So AZ says you may draw a gun in a "display" when force is allowable, ...

I'm not at all sure that that is true. I believe it to be true in Minnesota and Texas, but the Arizona law does not mention drawing a firearm.

As Kliegel points out, "defensive display" includes, according to the statute, verbally telling someone that you have a firearm or can get one, exposing or displaying a gun in a way that a reasonable person would understand means you can protect yourself against illegal physical or deadly physical force, or placing your hand on a firearm while it is in your pocket, purse or other means of containment or transport, when and to the extent a reasonable person would believe physical force is immediately necessary to protect yourself against another person’s use or attempted use of unlawful physical or deadly physical force.

Before the change in the law was codified, Arizona attorney Michael Anthony, who maintains the Arizona state government web link on firearms laws, explained by way of a hypothetical example that any of the actions that are now delineated as permissible "defensive display" could result in a conviction for aggravated assault unless the actor had reason to believe that he or she had been in imminent danger of death or serious bodily harm---that the person or persons had the ability and opportunity to cause such harm, the defender had been placed in jeopardy, and there was no other alternative (though retreat is not required in Arizona).

I do not believe that if someone drew a gun and pointed it at me I would understand that his intent was to show that he could protect himself. Rather, unless he were a uniformed officer, I would most likely infer that his intent was to cause apprehension of harm. And unless I had really posed an imminent and serious threat to him, that would constitute a crime.

I tend to believe the change in the law, including the wording "in a way that a reasonable person would understand means you can protect yourself against illegal physical or deadly physical force", was intended to rectify issue that had been described by Mr. Anthony.

Perhaps an Arizona attorney can clarify the question for us.

To address the original question, I do not think that if I were to put my hand on a gun in my pocket, or verbally tell someone that I were armed, that it would matter wether I were armed with a Seecamp or a Browning Hi-Power.

 

[Sam1911]

I'm not at all sure that that is true. I believe it to be true in Minnesota and Texas, but the Arizona law does not mention drawing a firearm.

Ahh, good point. Maybe I should have said IF...

 

[GEM]

We all should be aware of the legalities. I see the question as if you are legal to present the gun (imminent threat of greivous bodily harm) it can act as a deterrent so no shots are fired. The criminological data suggests that happens more than 90% of the time.

Given the wide variety of guns out there, it would seem that type probably doesn't matter much in most circumstances. I also asked Gary Kleck (the prominent scholar of such matters) if he knew if gun type was a powerful mediator of deterrence. He said it hasn't been studied directly but he didn't see an indication of such.

Elmer Keith said that you would think a 22 is a small caliber until it is pointed at you.

I suppose you can find an incident where a nut ignored a 22 or a 45. You are so better off carrying that if you decide not to carry as someone might think the gun is too small, you are making a huge mistake.

 

[sidheshooter]

Not much to add except to say this: If you pull a gun, it is safe to say that you are now in a gunfight. You may win it on the spot with no shots fired, or you may not get so lucky: we have no way of knowing. What happens next is largely outside of your control. Just yesterday I was in class under a guy who has, among other serious qualifications as an instructor, been victorious in shootouts. His comment was that he has had people run, argue, urinate, and even charge when he was forced to present a weapon in the line of duty, and he has not-even with years of reflection-been able to figure out any way that he could have predicted which was which, or who would be who.

I think that the background, mindset, and determination of the perp at the other end of your defensive weapon has so much more to do with the outcome (assuming that you've done all you can to project determination and authority on your part) that the selection of your own weapon becomes almost moot, beyond trying to balance potential effectiveness against ease of carry.

In short, you don't know what the inside of the other guy's head looks like (and thank god for that, really), so better to worry about the stuff you can have some control over.

Carry the largest caliber that you can shoot well and will carry every day, whatever that means for your situation, physique, training and lifestyle.

JMO, of course.

 

[Old krow]

Do any of you think that pulling out a very small gun such as that would have an effect on the so called ability of a gun to immediately "defuse" a situation? Could it simply escalate the situation?

I agree with JoeSlomo's assessment. There's probably more of an "intimidation factor" in the confidence and demeanor of the person wielding the weapon than there is in the weapon itself. I'm sure that there are some people who are conditioned to it, but the majority of the time I think that most people register "danger" well before they register "caliber."

It could escalate the situation, but drawing x gun vs. y gun would likely have the same result.

 

[foolsgold80z]

I believe this link quite vividly conveys my feelings on the topic of gun size vis-a-vis intimidation factor.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9kZujQFNbI

 

[JohnKSa]

But for anyone who hasn't, I'll spell it out:
You have a situation where deadly force is needed to defend you or someone you care about...

As is often the case, a one-size-fits-all answer doesn't.

TX law allows a firearm to be drawn/displayed to create the apprehension that deadly force may be used even when deadly force is not legally justified.

The circumstances of the situation must justify the use of force, which is a less restrictive requirement than what is required to justify the use of deadly force. Basically you can legally draw and display even in a situation where it might not be legal to use deadly force/shoot.

As far as the original question goes, if you run into a person who rationally assesses the size of the gun you're using before deciding how to respond, you're probably in a lot of trouble no matter what you're carrying.

 

[Yahtzee4U]

Correction

Poorly worded question on my part. I carry a LCP and have no problem with that gun, and I asked the question simply because a friend and I were discussing how movies and video games influence peoples actions so much, i.e. hollywood justice, guns, "cap a nine in your ass" exc exc.

I brought up the defensive display law (sorry I used the word "brandish") because it seemed like a very sensible law adjustment, and related to my question indirectly. I do not think someone can draw their gun just to show it off, or in anyway draw it if they are not prepared to use it, and i'm sorry if you got that feeling. Of course if you draw your gun you should be prepared to use it AND be in a situation that actually warrants using it.