What about a martial art WITH firearms?

Status
Not open for further replies.
C

Cosmoline

Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2002
Messages
23,646
Location
Los Anchorage
And I'm not talking "gunkata" here :D The other thread on martial arts got me thinking. If you're carrying, martial arts may be useful for giving you time to get to your firearm, or to move to avoid another with a firearm until you can get to cover, etc. But is there ANY modern martial art that actually trains you with a dummy CCW firearm?

Turning back the clock, there used to be a very developed western martial art on fighting with a heavy war rifle and bayonet. It had intricate forms and standards, and a boiled down version of it was still tought at least up to WWII in this country. Now it's basically just run screaming with your bayonet at the target.

What is there to replace this martial art? Why haven't martial arts evolved to take firearms YOU may have on you into account? As I understand it, most martial arts either disregard firearms for philosophical or political reasons, or simply teach you to avoid them. That's a terrible mistake when you live in a place where hundreds of millions have iron.
 
Most MA schools are full of crap. If they wanted to be realistic then then would provide or at least promote firearms training, but that would mean changing ALOT of other things in their curriculum.
 
Krav Maga has tons of firearms related skills. Everything but actual marksmanship, but I have seen KM schools team up with tactical shooting schools to cover that aspect.
 
that's because KM was developed by the israeli military, it's not some "way of the dragon" BS. That's really what turned me off of most martial arts forms, too much mysticism, not enough practical stuff. KM is crude and effective, that's why i like it.
 
Apart from Krav Maga, that Russian stuff, Sistema seems to incorporate quite a bit of moves with at least short arms. Likewise do modern Western ju-jutsu schools, at least Hokutoryu.

Our military's handbook on CQB with the Sako/Valmet with or without bayonet attached does include a bit of more advanced stuff than just running bayo first... weapon retention, using the overall form of the rifle with its curved magazine etc. so I guess all of that Western stuff hasn't entirely vanished either.
 
I think the reason why most Martial Arts systems do not incorporate firearms training is because most of them were developed before firearms were available. There is a strong emphasis on tradition in Martial Arts. I don't think sticking to a centuries old curriculum is right or wrong, but I think if you are serious about street defense you need to supplement your traditional Martial Arts training. The more varied and rounded your training, the better prepared you will be to deal with a violent attack.

I have studied Ju-Jitsu for two years, and we have developed some gun defense in our system but we do not train to fight with them. That is where I take my training into my own hands, and go seek firearms training at other non Martial Arts schools. I also consider unarmed street defense to be very different from Martial Arts. The fine motor skills that are often required to do many of the Ju-jitsu techniques I have learned are generally lost in the first few seconds of a fight.

Deborah
 
Wan bring up a point. What's with this phobia some martial arts styles have with firearms? Considering that many styles are a synthesis of other styles, why the obession with "tradition"?

Chinese boxing styles, as battefield arts, emphasized weaponry, including horsemanship and archery. Why not incorporate the modern equivalent(s), driving and firearms?:confused:
 
I've wondered that myself. I've been fortunate enough that the guy who influenced me most heavily in unarmed martial arts actually makes his living teaching LE and military (as well as civilians) in firearms, tactics, and driving as well as executive protection, SCUBA, and some other stuff, so my own personal philosophy and experience has evolved right along what I consider (of course;) ) the "correct" lines.
 
I wouldn't go so far as to say traditional Martial Arts have a gun phobia, but they teach what they know. There is value in what they have to offer, even if it does not include training with a firearm. When I went for my gun safety course, someone asked what to do in a physical confrontation where the use of a firearm was too excessive. The instructor wisely recommended that one should also train to defend yourself without a firearm. Don't get me wrong, I am all in support of developing a Martial Art that includes firearms training, but in the absence of that it seems wise to seek out the experts in that field to supplement unarmed defense.

Deborah
 
Re. the western martial art of bayonet rifle fighting, I think part of the problem is the rifles. Even a sturdy Finnish modern assault rifle is nothing compared to the fearsome prowess of an M-39 with a razor-sharp bayonet on the end. The old war rifles were designed to be abosolutely lethal with no bullets at all.

But that still leaves room for training on proper retention and firing techniques when the foe is in your face. Also, what about using firearms for non-lethal or less-lethal defense? The classic Winchester smackdown as performed by the Duke in "Rio Bravo" is a good example. Or using the steel butt of a revolver to knock someone out. But can you actually do this? Should you? I don't know.
 
MA

In my old Bujinkan Ninpo Taijutsu dojo in Ohio they used to have pictures along the top of one wall of all the upper level students. They were all posing in their posture of choice, with weapon of choice: sword, stick, chain, sickle and chain... and one of the cops in the group, with his .40 semiauto (not his service gun, either). Made me smile. Other than that, his body position is one of the basic martial arts postures.
 
Well, if anyone knows of a place that fits the bill in the Orange County, CA area, please let me know. I'm intrigued by Demi Barbito's school, but it's a 3+ hour drive from here. (As soon as I convince my wife to transfer to Santa Maria PD, though, I'm set).

For now, I guess it's just me and my heavy bag in the garage...
 
Don't know CA... how far are you from San Fran?
I've yet to meet him in person, but from the online chats we've had, I'm liking Dale Seago.
http://www.bujinkansf.org/

Not sure if he integrates hangun into his Bujinkan stuff, but I know he does both himself.
 
One of my old martial arts instructors is purposefully putting together a class on this kind of topic.

We all come from a group who has studied martial arts and firearms training on and off for several years and recently decided to bring it all together. With this, we are looking at starting with CCW oriented encounters, with some of the following that have been discussed:

1. Protecting your weapon from hostile draw from various holster positions.
2. Encounter ranges.
3. How to avoid being "jammed" (assailant rushes you, trying to pin you from a draw, our basic 10ft response to a firearm).
 
In defense of the language.

Pardon me, but marksmanship IS a martial art. In fact, from chimps pegging rocks at other chimps to ICBMs with MIRVs, marksmanship is THE martial art of importance. Hand to hand is for those who have let the bad guys get too close or have run out of ammunition.
 
There used to be a rogue martial arts school in the Philippines that supposedly incorporated the use of one or more 1911 handguns, it was marketed as "Tay-San"..a phrase drawn from the words "pamatay-sandata" (the killing weapon). It focused on very dirty and very brutal tactics, as well as serious customization of the pistol to make it a better (non-firearm) weapon. I seem to recall a flyer that had pics of a pistol-and-umbrella technique... I'll try to locate them and see if my memory hasn't misled me.

I used to see their dojo banner on the upper floor of a building in Cubao on the way to work, but since they built an elevated train track over EDSA...


Anway, I'll try to look for them.
 
Average Guy:

Well, if anyone knows of a place that fits the bill in the Orange County, CA area, please let me know. I'm intrigued by Demi Barbito's school, but it's a 3+ hour drive from here. (As soon as I convince my wife to transfer to Santa Maria PD, though, I'm set).

For now, I guess it's just me and my heavy bag in the garage...
Click to expand...
Here ya go:
Krav Maga in Orange County, CA
 
This question has often been of general interest to me, but only from the aspect of how other folks in the arts answered it ... and not only in regard to firearms (handguns, in particular), but other weapons, as well. Both those designed as weapons, and commonly recognized and accepted as such, and those of a more expedient nature. Then, there's the "traditional" versus the "modern" perspective when it comes to applying martial skills in ways that involve the use of more "modern" weaponry ...

Musashi may indeed have believed that once the sword was drawn the firearm became useless ... but other philosophical musings have provided followers of various arts with the premise that a "modern" adherent and follower of an art may not be able to consider themselves as "complete" if they aren't conversant and skilled with "modern" weapons.

Folks tasked with becoming competent in the use of firearms as weapons, especially regarding military & L/E in our modern culture, and folks that are interested in firearms as weapons more from an enthusiast's perspective ... can sometimes be a bit iconoclastic when it comes to their opinion of the importance and pre-eminence of firearms as the only viable weapons of note, you know?

I started shooting about 45 years ago, and seriously studying the arts 32 years ago ... and I found it much more balanced and natural to allow the "blending" of both of these aspects of my life, than to keep them compartmentalized in the "accepted" manner.

This was commonly at odds with the "mainstream" dojos where I trained in the early 70's, but fortunately it was welcomed by my teacher in various arts ... and closest friend of the last 32 years ... who also had some exposure to the intricasies of the "timelessness" of warfare in Southeast Asia in the 60's ...

Bottom line, balance is balance ... in all things ... and both fluidity of action and the integration of seemingly disparate pursuits, skills, knowledge and abilities may be surprisingly within our grasp if we accept that some of the "boundaries" which make up the limits of our perception are self-created ... :scrutiny:

Or some such nonsense ... ;) Sorry, forget I said anything.

Like I know ANYTHING ... :neener:
 
Martial Arts Training with "modern" weapons

I am a martial arts instructor and work in law enforcement. I have been working with a few fellow CCW'ers and martial arts students on developing a training regimen for long and short term goals.

The art I teach is a local ecclectic art based on much older traditions with an emphasis on practicality. My instructor taught in the military for a time and passed many practical tenets onto his many students.

As nordaim mentioned, we focus on some very practical areas of combat training. As with any martial art, though, a basic understanding is necessary, therefore non-firearm training is a base to build from. My students must "feel" their techniques before they are practical on the street.

Nothing taught in any school is practical on the street.

Any martial art can bolster your abilities with a firearm, though some do focus on them in training. But no martial art is better, seek out the instructor that teaches what you are interested in and has similar goals.

Good luck and be safe.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

D
  • Locked
The womanly art of self-defense
Replies
0
Views
482
Drizzt
D
P
  • Locked
New USMC unarmed combat system
2
Replies
35
Views
2K
fix
F
Trent
  • Locked
Mental health and gun violence threads.
2
Replies
46
Views
2K
Trent
Trent
S
  • Locked
Weapons and Self Defense in Jewish Law
Replies
5
Views
1K
Chaz
C
L
  • Locked
Female Firearms Instructor
Replies
1
Views
506
MBane666
M
Back
Top