What are some early signs of too much pressure?

[mickeydim468]

I know... Before you say it. This has been covered so many times. Well, I tried a search for this info and only found the mention of Pressure or Overpressure on 15 or more pages each, and yet none of the posts I tried tells what to look for, so I figured I would be specific and ask my question here. Sorry if it was as easy as changing my search terms but I couldn't figure it out.

So here it goes. My scenario is below.

As mentioned in my other thread about powder recommendations, I am working up some new loads for 2 rifles. I have never worked any loads over the minimum recommended loads listed in my Modern Reloading book by Richard Lee, so this issue was not really one to worry about. Now I am wanting to see what happens if I load a bit hotter than minimum loads. I am using H4350 for both rifles and am working up from minimum in 1 grain increments. The rifles are a new .243 Win Weatherby Vangard Synthetic and a 91 year old US model of 1917 Remington 30-06. The bullet weights are 100Gr and 165Gr respectively. I have already made up 40 .243 rounds with 37Gr and 20 of each of the following powder weights. 38, 39, & 40Gr.

Tonight I will be loading 10 of each of the following powder weights for the 30-06. 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, & 59Gr.

Tomorrow I will be shooting them to see what type of results I get from each load.

As I move up the ladder towards the maximum loads, what are the tell tale signs that I should stop or I will cause damage to my rifle or worse, to me and those around me?

Please respond as I am looking to do the shooting part of this experiment tomorrow, and I would hate to go out there without knowing what I am doing.

Thanks in advance!

Mikey!

 

[NCsmitty]

Check your previous thread.


NCsmitty

 

[45ACPUSER]

Consult a good reloading manual.....you got one right?

 

[mickeydim468]

Thanks NCSmity!

Is there anything else to look for?

Consult a good reloading manual.....you got one right?

Yes, I mentioned it in the first post the name of the manual, plus I have the Hodgedon reloading booklet and have access to Hodgedon's website where they give you maximum pressures which I have not exceeded in the loads listed above according to both resources.

Now more about seeing signs of pressure or am I just being a wimp here?

Mikey!

 

[243winxb]

Pressure Signs

The bolt will be hard to open when you are over pressure. The primer will not have a rounded edge. The web area of the brass has expanded. There is an ejector mark on the brass head. Case head separation. Don't load more than 5 rounds of each powder increase. Go up 1/2 gr at a time. I hope you own a bullet puller. You have loaded to many rounds to test with. Photos here of some pressure signs. Check all 4 pages http://www.photobucket.com/joe1944usa

 

[counterclockwise]

243winxb nailed it...

http://www.varmintal.com/a243z.htm

This is a finite element model analysis of the .243 bottleneck case during simulated max chamber pressure excursion (.308 derivative) by the LS-Dyna finite element analysis program. At the very bottom of the article there is an analysis of permanent web expansion versus maximum chamber pressure. In general the analysis is representative for about all bottleneck cases.

Anyway, this verifies probably the most accurate telltale sign of overpressure in bottlenecks, but is not easily verifiable in the field. ABC's of Reloading, and the Hornady Website reloading section, and other reloading manuals I'm sure, agree that if one sees permanent deformation of the diameter of the case at this point of 0.0005" it is cause for concern, and if over 0.001" then stop shooting. Most cartridge design drawings show a four place case body diameter at this point and locate the point 0.200" basic dimension above the case rim. Unfortunately, it takes a 4 place micrometer or a very good 3 place set of calipers to detect permanent change in this diameter before and after firing. The case is a most sensitive recorder of high pressure here, because it is virtually unsupported by the chamber wall during firing.

The other telltale signs?....unfortunately we see some those after firing some factory ammo which leaves a false impression. The new uber super magnum cartridge designers do not care what happens to the casing or primer cup after firing, as long as the remaining shreds can be ejected and the gun consistently holds together after firing.

 

[mickeydim468]

I hope you own a bullet puller. You have loaded to many rounds to test with.

I do. I am going to be pulling 1/2 of the .243 bullets tonight and will do 1.2 Gr increments. I have not yet started loading for the 30-06 so I will be fine there with 5 of each weight.

Thanks Guys! Now I have a better understanding and the pictures and website was great.

With the load data I supplied above with reference to my max loads for each caliber, you don't think I have anything to worry about right? I think NCSmitty already commented on this but a few opinions would be great. I hope no offense taken NCSmitty. None intended!

Mikey!

 

[243winxb]

will do 1.2 Gr increments.

.5gr increments is better.

With the load data I supplied above with reference to my max loads for each caliber, you don't think I have anything to worry about right?

Start low on the powder charge and work up as your doing. But in some calibers the maximum charge maybe safe, but brass life will be as little as 3 loading. There is a big difference in guns and chamber, it is possible that a listed midrange load in your gun could be the maximum. Load for accuracy, stay away from maximum loads whenever possible. If you need more power, go to a bigger caliber of firearm.

 

[redneck2]

I think he hit the "." instead of the "/"

 

[mickeydim468]

I think he hit the "." instead of the "/"

I did, sorry for the typo.

You guys are great! It worked like a charm.

I went out to the range and using 5 shots for each load in 1/2 Gr incriments I found the sweet spot for both rifles. My .243 Win likes right around 38 Gr and my 30-06 likes 54 Gr. I was able to shoot better than I ever have using those loads. I cleaned the rifles between load changes, so every 5 shots. I ran the brush through once for every round with Hoppes No. 9 and then dried it with 2 patches 10 swipes each. Then shot again. Even after shooting 100 rounds through my .243, it was clean as a whistle at the end of the day! So was the 30-06 after 80 rounds. The cleaning did 2 things... 1) Kept the playing field equal in regard to barrel surface. 2) Let the barrel cool between shooting sessions.

My best load for the .243Win. was 38 Gr which produced an impressive .312" three shot group and a 1.079" 5 shot group. I had made up 10 cartridges for each load for the .243 and after testing was able to do this 3 shot group.

I had similar results with the 30-06 using 54 Gr. My three shot group was the first three fired out of 5 and that result was .410" and then the first 4 shots was .964 and the fifth was a flier that gave 1.596". All in all I am very happy with my results. I will just switch to premium bullets (Nosler Partitions) when the time to load for hunting comes and then go out and sight in for around 200 yards which should give me a high at 100 yards around 1 1/2" and still be accurate enough for out to 250 yards. I doubt I will have to shoot any farther than 150 yards anyway, which would still be a tad on the high side.

Since I do not have any testing machines or whatever they are called for testing muzzle velocity and I have no idea how to calculate muzzle velocity or trajectory for my loaded rounds, I guess a bit more field testing will be in order to see if my theory is correct. Must make more cartridges! Must test!

I haven't taken any pictures of all of my targets, but if you would like to see them I can and will post a link to my google photo pages. I can upload them there as there will be too many to upload here. Just let me know if you want see them.

I want to publicly thank a member of THR, without whom all of this would not be possible. You see, In another thread Quoheleth found out that I reload on a shoestring budget and I didn't have a scale for weighing my powders. I was using the old fashioned Lee scoops. He was worried about me loading in this manner and PM'd me to get my address so he could send me his old Webster's powder scale which uses oil to dampen it. Not only did he send me the scale, he also made me a handmade wooden hammer he had made for me out of some very pretty hardwoods. He didn't want anything in return, he just asked that I pay it forward sometime in the future. I will honor that request without hesitation.


Thank you Quoheleth! The scale is working out beautifully! Me and my groups thank you very much!


Mikey!

 

[flipajig]

for all my reloads i start at or verry close to min and work up un 1/2 grn increments untill i get the valosity and the groop im looking for. with the exception of my 9mm it was in 2or 3 tenths of a grn and then it was in tenth grn untill it cycled my gun and i had the valosity i was looking for. I have never and will never increase in 1 grn increments. to big of a problem looking for a place to happen.

 

[Seedtick]

if we want to see them

Well of course we want to see your targets. And congratulations, it sounds like you had a good afternoon.

ST

 

[243winxb]

I will just switch to premium bullets (Nosler Partitions) when the time to load for hunting comes and then go out and sight in for around 200 yards

When you change any compontent, you will need to work up a new load. More testing. Changing bullets is a big difference.

 

[mickeydim468]

When you change any compontent, you will need to work up a new load. More testing. Changing bullets is a big difference.

I thought that since I would be using the same type of bullet as the Speer BTSP 165Gr. I wouldn't have to work up a new load. Someone on here told me that I could just substitute the Nosler partition in 165Gr. and I would be good to go.

This isn't true?

BTW... I will get the pics of my targets up later today since there is an interest.

Thanks again guys,

Mikey!

 

[rcmodel]

It isn't true because there is no similarity in the way the two bullets are constructed.

The Speer is a conventional lead core with a copper jacket over it.

The Nosler Partition is a two piece core with a solid copper partition running right through the middle of it. That makes it longer then the same weight conventional bullet.

That also makes it harder to squeeze down in the rifling so pressure can be different.

But even two conventional bullets from different makers may have slightly different ogive shapes, which also effects the length, and more or less bearing surface in contact with the rifling, which changes friction.

rc

 

[mickeydim468]

It isn't true because there is no similarity in the way the two bullets are constructed.

Well 5h1t!!! Pardon my french!

That is why I was doing this. I was hoping to use these at first for my hunting prospects but then was told not to, that the partition Noslers would be the way to go by many different people who have hunted before. I was also told that i could just work the load and then substitute the bullets. I do respect the two of you who have responded that this won't work, as I have read many of your posts, and neither of you have told people anything other than what your best intentions for them has been.

Now I have to go get some Noslers and work up from scratch again? Is there a benchmark where I can start that will narrow it down so I don't have to waste so many bullets on testing?

Mikey!

 

[rcmodel]

Without knowing what you intend to shoot with your .243 & 30-06, it's hard to say if Nosler Partitions are needed, or not.

They are not needed for Whitetail or average size Mule Deer.
And probably not for Black Bear with the 30-06. Might be good in the .243 however.

They probably are needed for Moose, Elk, and Brown Bear.

Here is Nosler load data.
Compare it to the loads you have already worked up and see where you stand. Notice the hottest load is often not the most accurate.

http://www.nosler.com/index.php?p=15&b=6mm&s=203

http://www.nosler.com/index.php?p=15&b=30cal&s=136

It does concern me however that your worry is over max pressure, and not so much the most accurate load.

That last 100 FPS you get from pushing the pressure limit is meaningless if the load doesn't group as well as a slightly slower one at less pressure.

rc

 

[mickeydim468]

It does concern me however that your worry is over max pressure, and not so much the most accurate load.

Being that this is a dialog via written word, it is hard to get across what the actual intent of the conversation is. My first objective is to make the most accurate loads for my rifles. Which I covered to some extent in another thread. When that thread changed was when I decided to test loads and see which was most accurate, I became concerned about pressure and that is when I decided to make this thread because I was not receiving the responses to that question within the other thread. I am new to reloading as well as posting questions on a message board such as this, so I may not be communicating my needs quite as well as I should be. I will try to do so in the future to keep everyone on the same page as me.

I will be hunting Black tail coastal deer in Oregon with my .243 Win. I will be hunting Roosevelt coastal Elk with my 30-06. I have never hunted before this year as I have never lived in a rural area before where hunting was such an easy opportunity, but I moved up here a year ago last May and really have gotten bit by the bug and really want my first hunts to be successful. (Naturally)

I don't have many friends here yet, and the ones I have made since I moved here are not very into hunting, so I am going it alone so to speak. I am ecstatic that I have found this forum where everyone is so helpful and worried just the same about my safety. You guys are quickly becoming a second family, and I can't wait until I have the same caliber of experience as you have so I can be helpful too and eventually pay it forward too! I know what it is like to have no where to turn for info and am grateful that you guys are here. I would really love it if someone who lives near me would like to get together sometime for a range visit. I have a membership at a local range and can have guests if anyone is interested.

Anyway, I will work on saving up some money for the partition bullets so I can work up a new load for them for accuracy sake, now that I know what to look for in pressure I won't be so worried about it and will just focus on my accuracy.

Mikey!

 

[Quoheleth]

Slightly off-topic

Thank you Quoheleth! The scale is working out beautifully! Me and my groups thank you very much!

Since you made a public spectacle of this you're most welcome. The scale was a gift to me from Encoreman when I was a flat-broke noob reloader. He also gifted me a couple handfuls of boolits.

What I've discovered from reloading is the pleasure of not only making my own ammunition (and shooting 'em!) but sharing with others who are just starting out and learning as they go. I'm not wealthy, but the Lord's blessed me the past couple years with a few "disposable" dollars here and there, and I've been able to pick up some things that 3 years ago were just pie-in-the-sky hopes. Now, as I have been given in the past, I am able to give and/or pass along to others.

Nothing special in that. From where I come from, we call it "being neighbors." You just happen to be a neighbor 3000 miles away, Mikey. Hope you're enjoying the rest of the gift basket, too.

Two lower-cost options for bullets might be Remington and Winchester. While not the top of the heap when it comes to premium ammo, I would speculate that those two manufacturers probably count for at least 50% of all game taken in the United States each year. I never felt undergunned with a box of vanilla Remington Core-Lokt or Winchester white box for my Savage 110 in .270 Winchester or Dad's .30-30 Marlin. Just a thought...

Q

 

[243winxb]

Always start low and work up for safety.

Is there a benchmark where I can start that will narrow it down so I don't have to waste so many bullets on testing?

Your 30-06-

I had similar results with the 30-06 using 54

The 54.0gr should be safe with a 165 gr Nosler bullet. Looking at the chart RC posted, it lists 3 different types of Noslers using H4350. I feel you will not have a pressure problem using 54.0gr? Your powder charge is well below Noslers listed maximum. BUT the accuracy may or may not be the same? As far as the 243win,

My best load for the .243Win. was 38 Gr

i have no data using H4350 with the 100gr Noslers other then Hodgdons website using a 95gr. But what would worry me here is on Hodgdons site the 105gr Hornady & 105 Sierra BTHP lists a maximuim of 37.5gr. So here, simply switching bullets in the 243win.could cause a big problem. Unless you find Nosler data for the 100gr. and you are near the starting load for that bullet,start low, work up the powder charge for safety.

 

[mickeydim468]

Hope you're enjoying the rest of the gift basket, too.

I most definitely am enjoying the spiritual books as well. I am reading every night and am finding things to be quite clear. Thank you!

Unless you find Nosler data for the 100gr. and you are near the starting load for that bullet,start low, work up the powder charge for safety.

Maybe I will change to the Barnes X Triple Shock in 85Gr as I have load data for that bullet combo. I may not have the right powder though. I will have to check.

Mikey!

 

[243winxb]

Black-tailed Deer-A female is called a doe and weighs 70 to 140 lbs. A male is called a buck and weighs 120-250 lbs.

You current 243 load should be fine.

Maybe I will change to the Barnes X Triple Shock in 85Gr

They work great for some, personally, they are not for me. To much history/problems with that bullet brand/type.

 

[rcmodel]

You current 243 load should be fine.

+1

Don't over-engineer this thing.

The Premium bullets like the Partition & X-bullet are designed for very deep penetration of very large animals.

A 140 pound deer isn't a very large animal.

Too good a premium bullet will drill right on through and not put the deer on the ground as fast as a normal .20 cent SP hunting bullet would do.

rc

 

[mickeydim468]

OK Keep the Speer 100Gr BTSPs for the .243 Win for the Black Tail Bucks and then what for the Elk for my 30-06? I saw the Nosler balistics on the page RC sent me to and they are pretty close to my load for best acuracy with the H4350, so I figure I can work out loads for that one, if you guys think I should go that way then.

Mikey!

I am at your mercy here so, I will try to do as you say as you're the reloading Ninja's in my dojo! LOL

 

[rcmodel]

Nosler Partitions & 30-06 for elk.
Speer SP's in the .243 for deer.

That right there sounds like The Plan!

But thats what I said in post #17, and here we are at post #25!

rc