What C&R condition allows sporterizinG?

[jame]

To hell with it. Flames be damned, I'm just gonna state my situation and pose my question.

As some of you know, I purchased one of the new arrival Enfields, and was exceptionaly disapointed with the condition. Not to be defeated, I decided to make a silk purse from a sows ear and refurbish, which, after much time and patience, I completed.

While in my persuit of rebuild and repair, I bought a Gunsmith Special, thinking that I might cannibalize to build a Franken-enfield. But the gunsmith special was in better shape than the original one. Not that this one is a prize either, but slightly better. I cleaned her up the best I could, did some light application of tung oil, and called it good.

I never wanted two, but now I got two. Now what? The GSS is no prize, BTW, as most metal marks are scraped off or gone. All original wood finish was gone when I got 'er. Most 'smiths I've visited locally say she has little or no collectors value, and they don't want it for trade.

Can I sporter, or attempt some sort of a trade/sell? What to do?

 

[tbz]

There is no prohibition against sporterizing it. But it cannot be sold afterwards as a c&r unless it is restored to its original configuration.

 

[rbernie]

I think that sporterizing a matching-number 'in good shape' MilSurp collectable is bad. I think that sporterizing a MilSurp that otherwise has little-to-no value other than as a small-parts donor is A Good Thing.

FWFW - I just finished putting together a '44 Mk4No1 with an old Fajen Monte Carlo walnut stock and a ATI scope mount, and it's one of my favorite sporters. It's got the original barrel (cut down and with a Lyman front sight silver-soldered on), and it never fails to shoot 1 1/2" groups at 100 yards with any ammo and 1" groups with anno it likes. It's light, has excellent balance, and in general makes me damn happy whenever I look at it or shoot it.

What more can you ask for than that?

 

[Blackcloud6]

Sell it to another Cruffler.

 

[444]

I think the first thing you have to ask yourself is why you are considering this avenue ? Are you just looking for a project to work on for fun, or are you looking for a good rifle. I realize that it is probabably a little of both. You want your project to be a good shooter.
If this is just a project, you have to ask yourself if the cost of this project is worth the expense. If I was going to "sporterize" a mil-surp rifle, it would have to be pretty bad to begin with. This usually means that the bore is gone along with a bad stock. I would have to decide if I couldn't just go out and buy a new comercial rifle for the same money. Obviously if you just want a project to work on and money isn't an issue, this doesn't apply. A lot also depends on the tools you have and your skills in working with them. As an example, if you have the tools and skills to rebarrel a rifle, then the cost of doing so is considerably less than paying someone else to do it. If you have the expertise to make a stock, this is far cheaper than buying one (unless you get a cheap POS, and then what is the point). Obviously you have to have the skills to make the thing functional, reliable, and accurate or there was no point in the project and your money is wasted. You also might be good friends with a gunsmith that will do work for you cheap or free. That would certainly change things somewhat, but the price of the materials is still a factor.
Another thing to consider is if the rifle action itself is going to make the project worthwhile. If I was going to try to build a custom rifle, I would want to start with a good action. This is the heart of the rifle. Personally, I wouldn't use an Enfield action, but that is just me.

Just as a side note: I once bought a Turk Mauser. I bought it knowing that it wouldn't headspace. I bought it after seeing barrels advertised in the Midway catalog in all kinds of different calibers. I thought it would make a fun project. Then I started talking to guys about what it takes to barrel an action and realized that I was not up to the task and paying someone to do it would be cost prohibitive. So, it is sitting in pieces as we speak.

 

[rbernie]

444 speaks the truth - extensive work to try and convert a sows ear into a silk purse often just isn't worth the money. But don't be put off by the idea of sporterizing a non-collectable MilSurp *if* the work required stops short of mill-and-lathe kinda stuff or if you really have an emotional attachment to the firearm in question.

I've had reasonable success with DIY metal refinishing (sand/grind/polish and reblue), stock bedding and fitting, and getting $25 crowns cut by my friendly local gunsmith as needed. This means that I can take a non-matching MilSurp that has a decent barrel (all already victims of some form of metal butchery that rendered them uncollectable - that's my moral standard on the subject) and refinish the metal/restock the firearm such that I get something that I can use to hunt and target shoot.

I guarantee you that the deer and paper targets don't know the difference between getting thumped by a 180gr 303R bullet from my sporterized Mk4No1 or a 180gr 30-06 bullet from my Ruger MkII. But I've got less than $200 tied up into the Mk4No1 (not counting the scope) *and* I managed to convert a parts-bin orphan into a usable and really neat firearm in the process.

I cannot for the life of my understand why some folks do not see the value in that, or believe that their need for MilSurp bitsa should relieve me of the ability to create a useful (and occasionally beautiful) tool.

 

[444]

Yet another thing to consider is whether or not you can just buy another rifle just like it for far less than it would cost you to work on the one you have.
An example: I bought a MN 91/30 for $49.95. I cleaned it up and it looked pretty good. Even the bore looked pretty good. However, it wouldn't shoot for crap. I tried handloading for it etc. all to no avail. When I say it wouldn't shoot I mean I was shooting at approx. 500 yards and one bullet would strike 10 YARDS to one side and the next shot might be 10 YARDS to the other side. It wouldn't even hold a group at 25 yards. I ended up slugging the bore and found that it measured .318" Obviously my work here was done, this thing would never shoot. I suppose I could re-barrel it but instead I simply bought another arsenal refinished 91/30 for $99 and it shoots great.
And again, if I wanted a scoped rifle that would shoot better, I would simply go to Wal-Mart and buy a Savage or Remington 700 ADL or even ah H&R Handi Rifle before I spent any money fixing up a milsurp. But that is just me. I know this is not popular with the sporterizing crowd, but I see milsurp rifles for what they are. If I want a milsurp rifle, I buy a milsurp rifle. If I want a scoped hunting rifle, I buy a scoped hunting rifle. The two don't cross over for me.

 

[rbernie]

If I want a milsurp rifle, I buy a milsurp rifle. If I want a scoped hunting rifle, I buy a scoped hunting rifle. The two don't cross over for me.

I hear ya. I just take a slightly different tack - to me, a rifle that can shoot less than 2" groups at 100 yards is capable of sporting use regardless of how it started out in life.

Just think of where the world would be without all of those Mauser-based sporters.

 

[444]

Well to me, sporting use and sporterizing have very little in common. I would take any of my M1s, or my milsurp bolt actions hunting. I regularly compete with them in matches. I plink with them a little. But none of this means I have to put a different stock on them or refinish them or put different sights on them...............................
On the other hand, my "regular" hunting rifles usually have plastic stocks and scopes on them. I usually don't use them for anything but hunting.

 

[jame]

I guess the main reason I mentioned sporterizing is because I saw a fellow member post his excellent results of an Enfield Scout that he built (First Class job, BTW, the word "bubba" doesn't apply to this one).

In his case, I believe he wanted a Sporter Scout, and used a POS Enfield to build himself one that,
A. Couldn't be found in the marketplace.
and
B. Even if one could be found, it would cost far more than his sporter.

I'm not saying that I have a burning urge to change the physical shape of a rifle just for simple amusement. I'm interested in doing another project, I've always wanted a Scout Rifle, and I think I have a viable donor.

I wasn't necessarily looking to work on another one, but just through chance and circumstance, I now have one. I'll take it to the Des Moines gun show this weekend to check with other dealers and 'smiths before I would do anything at all.

 

[444]

Now to me, that would be worthwhile.
You have a junker.
You have something in mind that you like.
You can't buy one commercially.
And an Enfield scout rifle is perfect.
It might even be closer to Jeff Coopers original idea of a scout rifle because it uses stripper clips.

 

[jame]

I thought the Old Wise One preferred mags on his scout rifles?

(Enfield 'kinda" has this covered, tho barely)