What did I screw up?

[jamz]

My last 100 reloads (done in two seperate batches) for some reason had a pretty high FTF rate, and the primers looked "caved in" rather than dented. Probably 1 out of 6 or 7 rounds didn't fire, but the rest did.

I had handled the primers with my bare hands just a TAD, enough to flip 'em over for the pickup tube. They all seemed to be seated uniformly.

The load was for .38 special as follows:

Random Cases
Federal 100 small primers
3.2 grains of Unique
lead DEWC wadcutters
COL 1.180"

Am I doing anything really wrong here?

-James

 

[Jeeper]

One of the most common reasons that rounds dont fire is "high primers" I always box my ammo and hold it up to my eyes to look down across all the primers. If they are high then you can see it. The reaon they dont fire is that the firing pin finishes seating the primer which absorbs all the energy from the pin. Thus there isnt enough to hit the anvil. It is something to check. handling primers can make them go bad if your hands are really sweaty. It isnt that common. Why arent you using a flip tray? The cave in look versus dented is since they didnt fire. Once the pin hits it the pressure peaks befor ethe pin is full removed. Theus the primer is sealed around the pin and looks more dented than caved in.

 

[Swamp Yankee]

Do they fire if chambered and struck a second time?

If I read your post correctly this is an isolated case from only one lot of reloads. If the answer to the above question is yes, then I too would believe that it's most likely a high primer issue.

Take Care

 

[yesterdaysyouth]

wouldn't a high primer bind up the cylinder??
it always does im my smiths...

 

[Frohickey]

It could be high primers, enough to allow the cylinder to spin and the chamber to close, but not enough to have the anvil of the primer contact the case. What ends up is the firing pin drives the primer the rest of the way in, dents the primer cup, but does not fire.

Another could be a bad batch of primers.

I had a bad batch of Winchester primers handprimed into cases that had a high FTF rate. About 1 in 50. Looking at a unfired/unchambered round, the primers are seated properly, but the firing pin mark is very shallow on a fired case. I think that the factory used large rifle primer cups in the large pistol primers.

 

[P95Carry]

James .... ''caved in''??? Working on basis that high primers will (usually) stop a revo cyl from closing, I am reading this as the primers looking too concave. Thus further away from firing pin. Is this the case.??

That would suggest the problem being with the primer seating letting them go too deep and or as was mentioned, wrong depth cups.

A primer does need seated fully (Boxer) to enable the anvil to seat properly on the compound and ''sensitize'' it. But again ... this sounds like excessive depth seating.

What would really help is a pic or two.

 

[jamz]

Thanks guys. I'm having a little trouble with primers and the press- lots of the time they don't want to seat without giving the case a litle spin by hand after resizing. (Dillon 550B, so it resizes and deprimes on the down handle/ram up stroke, and inserts a primer after the handle up/ram down stroke) Lots of times, it seems (to me, inexperienced) to require excessive force, so I just stop it and toss the case and stuck primer.

The primers all seemed to be almost totally level with the case head- my fingertips couldn't really detect any real variations. I did have tome obviously high primers that I brought along to fire just to see what happened when you fire a primer only in a gun. (Pop, duh) There were indeed one or two so high I couldn't close the cylinder, but the rest were fine. I struck most of them a couple of times, even doing single action, in which the gun has been pretty reliable, and no dice.

There didn't seem to be any pattern around case headstamps either. Seemed to happen with all cases.

I'm still pretty afraid of exploding a primer when I'm seating it, so I try to be pretty gentle with seating, but I do definitely feel it "seat home" if you will. So I'm rpetty sure the primer is resting in the bottom of the cup, and visually and tactilly, the top of the primer is flush with the case head.

Chris, I'll try to get pictures up tomorrow- my picture computer was just dissassembled and brought into the reloading/gun room in preperation for new carpet installation tomorrow.

Thanks for the help all!

-James
EDIT: Also, forgot to add, that during one particularly wimpy cylinderful, quite a bit of powder was unburned, despite the primers going off, the bullet leaving the barrel, etc. I shook out some cases after ejecting them and some grains fell right out.

 

[cookiemonster]

hmm...last 100 loads...you leave the primer box sitting out? extra humid environment? this, I assume, hasn't ever happened in the past? I would try with diffrent primers...perhaps federal or winchester sp primers...does this happen with any other ammo you load?


Darrell

 

[jamz]

Cookiemonster: COOOOOKIIIEEEEEEEE!!

I mean, sorry. Too much Sesame Street lately. I'm very very new at reloading. i've reloaded under two hundred rounds total- this is on the last 100. The first 50 I'm not firing due to so many distractions I'm not sure they are safe to fire. I do have a box of Winchester primers I could use, but I don't know how that would affect the load.

As for environment, I'm in the Northeast, and it's pretty dry in the winter here, so unless this batch sat around in Florida for a while before getting shipped up here....

-James

 

[Randall]

Do your cases have crimped in primers? If so you must remove the crimp before priming. If you have a case mouth deburr tool use it to remove the crimp.
Randall

 

[SASS#23149]

Sounds like you are being too timid on that upstroke all right.
LEAN on that handle.I've put a LOT of pressure on primers that felt tight and have never(yet)had a detonation.
DO wear safety glasses at the press,and ear plugs don't hurt either.
adjust that little wire thingy so that the cases stay lined up with the primer 'punch'.
My concern is that if ur worrying and fussing with the primer station you could forget what yo have or havn't done at the other stations.The best 'rule' with progressives is 'if ya think ya messed up ya prolly did.Pull em all out and start over,for safety.Run the odd cases thru one at a time until ur back to square 1.

 

[molonlabe]

Most presses don't have the force to sufficiently seat the primer on the upstroke nor can you feel it. IMHO that is…. So I switched to hand priming a long time ago because you can feel the primer seating. I haven’t had a FTF since.

 

[Kruzr]

I'd also suggest you try some One-Shot spray lube on the brass. Just a quick spray and you don't have to wipe it off. It will make the working the handle on the 550 much easier. Also, be sure and keep the press oiled.

 

[cookiemonster]

Oh yeah...I have never used the built in priming device on any of my presses. I acutally use either a Lee hand primer or the Lee primer that rides piggy-back on top of the press. Prefer the hand primer so when I am watching TV I am good to go.

Darrell

 

[Norm Lee]

Ftf

Hey Jamz:

You been messin' with that strain screw?

Cheers,

Norm

 

[LHB1]

James,
Your description sounds very odd. First, eliminate the gun as a problem. Does it fire OK with factory ammo? If not, fix that first. Is that a new or used reloading press? If new, it may need some adjustment on primer seating section. If used, it may have a problem that needs fixing.
Do you have an experienced reloading friend who can stop by, look at your reloads, and load a few on your press? An experienced reloader might spot your problem much easier than we can do from afar.
Would suggest simplifying the variables by selecting only one brand of cases to load until you get the problem identified and solved. Variables between different case brands only complicate matters for new reloaders.

Good shooting and be safe.
LB

 

[jamz]

Thanks all! I'm going to try a new recipe with a new bullet and different primers- winchester instead of federal and see what happens there.

Part of me is wondering if there was some water in the cases leftover from washing them, but they were dried overnight IIRC, so they ought to have been pretty dry.

The gun is okay with factory ammo, but the mainspring needs replacing. However, in SA mode, it always goes off pretty much. SA didn't do much for my reloads though.

I should check out my set screw though.

Maybe my good buddy jkelly can come by.

-James

 

[jdkelly]

jamz,

You have e-mail.


Respectfully,

jdkelly

 

[cracked butt]

If you are using a press mounted seater it will probably only seat the primer flush and no deeper. My Rockchucker will only seat to flush. This is ok for rifles with a hard primer strike, but for more sensitivity you want to seat them until they bottom out in th eprimer pocket. I use a RCBS hand priming unit and can feel when the primer is all the way in. The tool is worth every penny as its much faster than using a press mounted seater.

 

[redneck2]

I respectfully disagree with the individuals that say a hand primer is necessary. If that's your program, fine, but I load on a 550 and don't typically have primer problems if I use Winchester or Federal. The reason I spent $500 was to get a progressive, not mess around doing 27 different steps...

Exception to this was when I first started on my previous press, a Dillon 450. When I first started, I was trying to get everything set and pretty much terrified that I'd get a double charge. While doing all the set-up, I got powder worked down between the ram and the housing. This makes the ram bind. You lose leverage and "feel". Sometimes the primer was high enough that the shell plate wouldn't turn. I'd have to take 2 or 3 tries at getting the primer seated. As soon as I cleaned up the powder off the ram/housing and lubed it well, it worked fine.

I'd read all the warnings about primers going off. If you read Lee's book, it makes it sound like primer detonation in the tube is an everyday occurance. Well, I've figured out that you can lean on a primer pretty good and still not have them detonate. Make sure you put some effort in at the end of the stroke. I'd get some Winchesters and prime the cases without doing any other steps until you get the "feel".

Once you get it down, you can feel exactly when the primer seats. If your press is new, you may have to use it for a few hundred cases before it loosens up. I got a new 550, and even having experience at setting one up, it took maybe 200 cases before everything smoothed out. I still add a small weight to the top of the primer follower rod to make sure the primers fall into the feed cup.

Also, it's CRITICAL that you have the press bolted to a solid, and I mean solid bench. The primer seat is at the top of the stroke, where you have the most leverage against the press itself and the bench it's bolted to. I first bolted mine down on 3/4" plywood. Seemed plenty stout, but it flexed. The plywood absorbed the force, rather than the force seating the primer.

CCI's seem harder to light off, and considerably harder to seat, but you said you were using Federals. I've pretty much settled on Winchester for my normal every-day loads. They seat easy and also light off

There are guys that shoot IDPA and the such that load tens of thousands of rounds a year on Dillons. I strongly suspect they don't hand-seat primers.

HTH

 

[ID_shooting]

"Part of me is wondering if there was some water in the cases leftover from washing them, but they were dried overnight IIRC, so they ought to have been pretty dry."

IMO, here is the culprit. Are you resizing/depriming before or after the wash?

If after, chances are you have some water left over. Drying overnight isn't enough. I washed cases for a while untill I figured out the tumbler does a better job of cleaning than washing does. When I would dry, I would bake them in the oven at about 180 degrees for several hours to ensure all the water was gone.

 

[redneck2]

Added note...

forgot to give you the easy way to check primer seat. Put a straightedge (metal rule) across the head of the case, with a thin, very narrow piece of paper between the straightedge and the seated primer. If the paper slips out easily, you've got .003 below flush (good). If the paper is "stuck" between the straightedge and primer, they probably need seated deeper.

There are some brands of brass that are harder to seat primers in than others. While starting, it may be wise to sort by make. IIRC, Seller & Belloit is very difficult. Rem, Win & Federal are pretty easy IIRC

One thing I know you're doing wrong is not using a flip tray. They cost maybe $5 or less and save a ton of time. Keep things easy and simple and you'll concentrate on the important stuff.

 

[jamz]

Well, I'm 90% sure that it was leftover water in the case. It would explain why some cases fired, some didn't, and there was some leftover unburned powder a few times.

Just loaded up some .38 with 158 Gr. TMJ bullets, 4.7 grains of Unique, same cases and primers and it all worked just great. Shot maybe 40 at the range with no problem. Now my boy and I are at the bench cranking out a couple hundred of them.

-James

 

[P95Carry]

Sounds good james - yep - any residual moisture is bad juju!

Glad you are training up your ''assistant''

 

[alex-v.]

Modern day primers are virtually impossible to kill. Water will deactivate them but once they dry out they will be as good as new. CCI released a report which appeared in the AMERICAN RIFLEMAN several years ago. They tested primers which were soaked in various solvents like WD-40 and the primers continued to work.

I have soaked primed 45 ACP cases in small bowls of WD-40 and after a month took them out and placed them on the shelf to dry. Within 3 months they would make a loud enough bang that they sounded like the ones which were not soaked. I did not load up the cases but have heard of others who did load the cases and tested them over a chronograph with very little loss of velocity.

Powder is much easier to contaminate and kill off so it will not burn properly.