What do you guys think of Del Ton?

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Got_Lead?

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Hello all again:

I just looked at the Del Ton site, and was pretty stoked to see they now have lightweight 16" midlength barrels with chrome lining. I have an HBAR midlength, but it's really heavy, like almost 9 pounds with mag and sling.

I would like something a bit lighter, and I have another lower receiver, so I was thinking of building another midlength, with an M4 stock and A4 upper. The lightwight barrel kit offered by Del-Ton would fit the bill perfectly.

So far, I have only heard good things about Del Ton. But I haven't had any experience with their products. Is their quality good?

Thanks
 
2 of my current rifles are built on Del Ton kits. Absolutely no issues with either of them. Both have aways functioned 100%, and I like dealing with the Del Ton people. I have also bought a lot of parts from Del Ton.
 
i have 1 pretty decent. the only bad thing is it takes forever to get one. had to wait about 12 weeks to get the upper receiver.
 
I love mine. It did take a while to get the upper since they were out of the chromed barrels. But it has been 100% and went together perfectly.
 
For the same price I'd rather have a PSA M4 profile 14.5 bbl w/ pinned YHM Phantom, or a PSA medium contour 16" SS mid length w/ Wylde chamber for $30 more. Both will be lighter than your HBAR, though not quite as light as a true LW bbl. However, with the PSA uppers you get an HPT/MPI bolt in the carrier group, and a nicer bbl. either way. Bbl choice would be dictated by if I wanted a target oriented gun, a gun to run a little harder.
 
Exactly what uga said. I havent owned a Delton, but from the feedback they receive, I definitely wouldnt mind having one. The only thing is, right now the PSA kits are even cheaper than Delton by the time you add the 45.00 chrome lining option. I'm not knocking Delton by any means, I just think that PSA has a little bit higher quality parts in the areas that really count.
 
Here is PSA's info page on their bolt carrier groups http://palmettostatearmory.com/1746.php.

Here is Deltons http://www.del-ton.com/AR_15_Bolt_and_Carrier_Assembly_p/bc1044.htm

The only difference I can see is that Delton makes no mention of their bolts being shot peened.

Here is the wiki for "shot peening" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shot_peening

I would say that that one difference does indeed make the PSA "better", even though you are not likely to have trouble with either of them. Considering they are the same price though, I would always opt to get more for my money if it's possible.
 
Are the PSA better bolt carriers?
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Well, looking at DTI's website, they're claiming that they're also using HPT/MPI bolts in their carriers. The only thing I can see that differs from the PSA BCG is that DTI doesn't specify if their carrier is shot peened.

That takes us back to the barrel. DTI doesn't specify what type of steel they're using, and you have to add $45 to get a hard chromed bbl. While it's not 4150, PSA at least tells you they're using 4140 steel, which is the same grade of steel S&W uses in all their M&P-15 bbls. You also get the hard chromed bbl. at the $400 price point with PSA. If you jump up to $500 with PSA, your upper comes with a 16" version of the real deal FN cold hammer forged M4 bbl. PSA calls it "machine gun steel", which I think is pretty safe to assume is Mil-B-11595E since it's an FN hammer forged bbl.

So, we have:

$400 - DTI unlined bbl, unknown steel, 1:9 twist
$400 - PSA hard chromed bbl, 4140 steel, 1:7 twist

$445 - DTI hard chromed bbl, unknown steel, 1:9 twist

$500 - PSA with FN cold hammer forged hard chromed bbl, (presumed) Mil-B-11595E steel, 1:7 twist.



Other things that are purely my opinion:

I like standard Gov. or M4 profiles bbls. I find they offer an ideal compromise (for my uses) of much lighter weight than an HBAR, while resisting heat from firing better than a LW.

1:9 twist shoots light bullets only marginally better than a 1:7, but won't stabilize bullets as heavy as a 1:7 is capable of stabilizing.

I hope all that helps.
 
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^I would say personal choice and the ammount of publicity a particular company gets. I don't see anyone saying Del Ton is "better" than PSA. Personal experience and use of a product is the key. (There are those that say that using anything not made by Colt, Bravo Company, etc. doom you to an ugly and early death too!)

I don't personally know about PSA, so I have no opinion of them. I do know about Del Ton, and the product they produce works for me personally.
 
I am in the same boat. I have my upper for sale and am going to get a PSA m4gary upper. I have also thought about just buying a new barrel and building it myself.
 
DougW, and sansone,

I'm not disagreeing. In 5.56 rifles I'd rather have an unlined Del-Ton over a DPMS any day. I'd rather have a Del-Ton chrome lined over a Bushmaster as well. From hands on experience Del-Ton knows how to build an AR-15. They typically stake things correctly, and they know how to cut in spec chambers - unlike some other companies mentioned in the previous sentences. Unfortunately for them, their competition isn't just DPMS & Bushmaster anymore.

Because of sites like THR, M4C.net, and arfcom, amongst others, the AR-15 consumer is a well educated consumer. With BCM now a known quantity offering a superior feature set, build quality at least as good, and a price around $550; it makes it hard to recommend that someone shell out $450 for a chrome lined Del-Ton. PSA is the new kid on the block, but with their $500 upper that has the FN hammer forged bbl. you what type of components (top end) they're using. By all accounts they're assembling everything correctly. They're forthcoming, and tell you exactly what grade of steel they're using in their more economical bbls as well.

Del-Ton's quality hasn't gone down at all from what I've seen. They just have new competitors who are offering what's a better value for many buyers.
 
just to help out:

I e-mailed Del-Ton awhile back (a few months ago) and here is what they told me:

The 1x7 barrels they offer are mil-spec steel, but are only batch-tested. The 1x9 ones are all 4140, also batched. They did not tell me what certification the mil-spec steel was; for all we know it is just 4150 steel.

BCG is C-no. 158 steel. Bolts are batched but are shot-peened.

Carriers get staked properly now.

They use the black five-coil extractor now.

Buffer tubes are available in both commercial and mil-spec.

M4 stocks come with carbine weight buffer.

all uppers now come standard with the M4 feedramps. These used to be an optional upgrade for $25, then for only $10. Now, it's standard.

Hope this helps.

I owned a DTI middie awhile back and it was solid and reliable. This was back when their options were way more limited and some of the things I just mentioned were not SOP for them (ex: staking carriers, standard M4 ramps over rifle ramps, no 1x7 twist on any barrels, etc.)

I would own another without hesitation, though I'd probably skip the BCG and go with a BCM or DD one instead.

I heard good things about PSA, but apparently finding the standard kits for sale is pretty impossible for now. Also, last I checked, all their kits are M4 profiles only. DTI might cost more after you upgrade the barrel, but they are always in stock or at least taking orders, and have a huge product line right now.
 
I have a Del-ton middie upper that I am very pleased with. I ordered it without a BCG, it arrived with a complete BCG in the assembled upper (they test fire their uppers), I called Del-ton and they said just keep it. Friendly customer service, they are responsive to customer input on sites like arfcom. Some of the newer businesses in the build your own AR game are just now becoming competitive with Del-ton, but for overall selection, quality, value, and service, Del-ton is hard to beat.

Some other points:

4140 vs 4150 really doesn't make a difference to the recreational shooter. Think about it... if you are spending the $15,000 on ammo that it would take to wear out a barrel, is a few hundred for a replacement barrel really going to matter?

Chrome lining is similar, its mainly for corrosion resistance in extreme environments with little care. I'd like to think that most of us here take better care of our guns.

With 16"+ barrels 1:9 twist is about perfect, allowing you to shoot common and cheap 55gr, all the way up to the mid 70gr loads.

1:7 is really only a good choice if you are building a specialized rifle to shoot heavy bullets, or have a 14.5" barrel, which is kinda silly anyway if its not a SBR. If you are going to have 16" sticking off the front of your gun, it might as well all be rifled.

We all like to get the most out of our money, but some stuff that is obsessed about in the firearms industry won't make a lick of difference unless you are military, law enforcement, or sponsored competitive shooter.
 
actually, all of that can make a huge difference.

mil-spec barrels can tolerate heat better because they dissipate heat more quickly. They are also more tolerant to quenching. This can lead to better accuracy compared to regular barrels during strenuous use, since a hot barrel can quickly fail and/or lead to detriment in accuracy until it cools.

chrome-lining also helps in this regard, along with making rifles easier to clean and helping them staying clean. Also, the extra 45 bucks you drop for chrome lining can give the barrel about 900-1500 dollars or more in ammo costs in terms of extra life.

Also, I never shot 70+gr. loads out of a 1:9 twist, but I was under the impression that the 68gr. mark was about the limit of that twist.

1:7 handles 55gr just fine, and can handle up to the 76gr. match loads and many SD/HD rounds that 1:9 can't.
 
RP88 is right, the hardest thing about oedering from PSA right now is catching stuff in stock. It seems that they are regularly sold out of a lot of their items.
Having heard evidence that the Deltons are indeed using a shot peened bolt, I dont see any real benefit to using the PSA kit over the Delton. As a matter of fact, I might be leaning more towards the Delton kit now because I can order it in a light weight mid-length profile.
 
mil-spec barrels can tolerate heat better because they dissipate heat more quickly. They are also more tolerant to quenching. This can lead to better accuracy compared to regular barrels during strenuous use, since a hot barrel can quickly fail and/or lead to detriment in accuracy until it cools.
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You are absolutely correct. This is one of the many reasons the military creates specifications that then become "the" MILSPEC.

But my point was that it doesn't make a difference to a recreational shooter. There aren't too many ranges that would allow the kind of sustained, and barely controllable fire necessary to cause that kind of heat, and there are even fewer of us who can afford the ammo.

Even in the context of home defense, all that is required is for the rifle to fire at most a complete magazine without jamming, and be minute of man at 15 yards. I think 4140 steel can handle that.

1:9 is fine in 20" barrels for 75gr, in 16" it depends on the bullet design. Remember the M16A1 had a 1:12 twist, which was ideal for 55gr loads of the time. If you had to pick one twist rate which would cover the widest range of possible .223 bullet weights, it would be 1:9, which is why they are so popular.

For the record my 16" middy and 20" AR are both chrome lined, and the 20" is 1:7. The 24" is stainless :)

I'm just playing devils advocate and reminding people not to get so worked up about all the things they read on the internet. Just because the .mil does it, doesn't mean its necessary for you, or even a good idea.
 
I do agree. A lot of what the average shooter wants can be had for less with the 'commercial' options.

My implied point is that I would rather be the person limiting the platform instead of being the person LIMITED by his platform.

I do have a souped up "built to Rob_s's chart" TDP AR. Despite never shooting faster than one shot per five seconds, it may seem like a waste of money. But, for the same reason people buy Corvettes but still generally obey the speed limits, I wanted those features because:
-you never know when they come in handy
-the extra quality - regardless of whether or not I'll notice it - didn't cost that much more to begin with
-peace of mind
-because...I frikkin can...

it all depends on the budget. Personally, if one has the budget to afford an AR, he should also be able to afford to buy a GREAT AR. So, why not get the extra quality for the extra ~20% cost?

Now, if all you do is buy for short-term use (i.e. range, possible HD use, hunting) then it's a whole different story with a whole different set of questions to ask yourself.
 
ugaarguy and RP88, I agree that the sky is the limit when it comes to components. Barrels can be had for $150 to over the $1500 range (I have bought a few), and the higher the price, generally the better the barrel.

The point I think of the OP was a concern of the quality of Del Ton kits. Yes, there are "better" kits that might or might not be available that include bits and pieces that are of higher quality. But, if I can't get a PSA kit right now, and I can get a Del Ton, then I can weigh the quality/availability differences and make a descision.
 
Chrome lining is similar, its mainly for corrosion resistance in extreme environments with little care. I'd like to think that most of us here take better care of our guns.
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I must disagree. THR member Fabius has posted this link previously - http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=AD822736&Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf . Chrome lining makes a huge difference in wear resistance and increased round count. Corrosion resistance is just an added benefit.
With 16"+ barrels 1:9 twist is about perfect, allowing you to shoot common and cheap 55gr, all the way up to the mid 70gr loads.

1:7 is really only a good choice if you are building a specialized rifle to shoot heavy bullets, or have a 14.5" barrel, which is kinda silly anyway if its not a SBR. If you are going to have 16" sticking off the front of your gun, it might as well all be rifled.
Click to expand...
1:9 is fine in 20" barrels for 75gr, in 16" it depends on the bullet design. Remember the M16A1 had a 1:12 twist, which was ideal for 55gr loads of the time. If you had to pick one twist rate which would cover the widest range of possible .223 bullet weights, it would be 1:9, which is why they are so popular.
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I'm sorry but that's simply incorrect. Bbl length has NOTHING to do with required twist rates. 1:9 twist shoots 55 gr ball no better than 1:7 twist. In fact, 1:12 twist shoots 55gr ball (M193) no better than 1:7 twist.
FM 23-9 p. F-15 (p. 210 of 305 in the PDF) http://www.ar15.com/content/manuals/FM23-9.pdf.

The M16A2 rifle with its 1:7 twist fires both types of ammunition with little difference in accuracy out to a rangeof 500 meters. The M16A2 and its ammunition are more effective at ranges out to and beyond 500 meters due to a better stabilization of the round.

The two 10-round shot groups in Figure F-15A were fired by a skilled marksman at a distance of 274.2 meters, using the same M16A1 rifle. The 25.4-cm shot group on the left was fired (and zeroed) with M193 ammunition. The 6-foot shot group on the right was fired after substituting M855 ammunition.

Figure F-15B shows two 25.4-cm shot groups fired by the same skilled marksman at a distance of 274.2 meters, using an M16A2 rifle. The shot group on the left was fired (and zeroed) with M855 ammunition. The shot group on the right was fired after substituting M193 ammunition.
Click to expand...
Note that at 274.2 meters, both the M16A1 (1:12 twist), and M16A2 (1:7) both fired 25.4 cm groups with M193 ammunition. The M16A2 fires the same 25.4 cm group with M855 ball at 274.2 meters.
 
Once upon a time I purchased a Del-Ton from a local FLL. Fit and finish was really good but the bolt carrier was not staked as per what might be considered properly. After approx 300 rounds the weapon started 2 or 3 popping per trigger pull. I called Del-ton and they gave me two options. Ship the lower to them or they would send me a new trigger. I opted for option two and have never had a problem with the weapon doing anything other than expected. I am glad to read they are now staking properly for I called them about 6 months ago and told them they were taking a lot of heat from the gun forums for improperly staked gas keys. Maybe they were going in that direction anyway but I am glad they are now doing it; the weapon I have from them I would trust my life with.
 
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