What gun for NRA Conventional Bullseye??

[FredHunter]

I am in the process of going through the NRA Marksmanship Program "Conventional Bullseye Pistol Qualification" and I have run into an accuracy problem with my Sig P245. It's a 45 ACP and I reload my own loads. The barrel is only 4" and I want to reach Distiguished Expert with open sites.

I am looking for input from others that have reached this goal and what gun/s they used.

I do have my eye on a Springfield XDm-9 5.25 and Glock 34 and Glock 35. I also am looking at a 1911's.

Your thoughts?

Thanks,
Fred in Florida

 

[Jim Watson]

I dare say 9+ out of 10 of bullseye .45s are 1911s but they are usually either rather high end guns or accurized standard models.
There are a few Pardinis and S&W 945s out there but not many.

I don't think the plastic pistols you name will shoot with a GOOD 1911. But a GOOD 1911 will cost a good deal more.

I am surprised a Sig Sauer has an "accuracy problem."

 

[Mike OTDP]

First, dig into the rules.

Distinguished takes a military-style pistol. 1911 or M9. There's a big fight over which is better - the 1911 is generally easier to keep in match condition, but harder to shoot.

Expert or Master is 3-pistol. .22, centerfire, and .45. Most shooters use a 1911 for centerfire and .45, and one of the high-end European pistols (Feinwerkbau, Hammerli, or Pardini) for .22.

 

[FredHunter]

Here is the program I am talking about. See pages 8-9.
http://pistol.org.ohio-state.edu/qualbook.pdf

The Sig only has a 4" barrel where many of the competitions guns are 5"+. The gun shoots great. I just need something more accurate.

 

[marvelshooter]

I just found this and I realize it is an old thread but here goes anyway. I am not exactly sure what you have here. NRA bullseye classifications can only be issued by the NRA from results sent to them by match directors of approved or registered matches. There is no provision for postal or "witnessed" shooting. NRA bullseye matches usually require a .22 and at least a .45 that can also be used in the (any) centerfire portion. The .45 can be anything that is accurate enough to do the job including a revolver. A good source of info is: http://bullseyepistol.com/
Good luck.

 

[jelenko]

Interesting. I think the comments you've received so far assumed the Conventional NRA Bullseye competition. The word 'Distinguished' usually refers to CMP competition in which you must use a service weapon.

For what's described in the pdf file, you should be just fine with a Sig - even with a 4" barrel.
That said, I think you'll find it easier to control the trigger/sights using a single action pistol - like a 1911.
However, in the pdf, for what you want to do, it doesn't say you have to use a centerfire pistol. If not, you could use a 22 with it's lower recoil. The Ruger Mark III, the Browning Buckmark or S&W Model 42 would be an excellent options if you could use a 22. S&W's standard 22 pistols would also be options if they aren't double action.
Absolutely, positively - for the course of fire they show - you do not need a Pardini or any of the other high end European 22's.

 

[marvelshooter]

Interesting. I think the comments you've received so far assumed the Conventional NRA Bullseye competition.

Is there any other kind of shooting? )

 

[Pete D.]

two cents

Let me add my two cents worth of advice.
My response to questions like the OP - "what gun should I get?" has always begun with the recommendation to go to a few pistol matches - leg matches in this case - and see what the winners are shooting.
Generally for Leg matches, working toward Distinguished, shooters are using 1911s and M9s (or some variation).
So..the OP has been to matches and done that part.....what guns were used by the guys shooting the highest scores? (I know that the shooter is the deciding factor, not the gun, but the Masters in any endeavor tend to pick the best tool for the job.)
As far as .22s go:

Absolutely, positively - for the course of fire they show - you do not need a Pardini or any of the other high end European 22's.

No, you don't.....here's the "but"......but you will find that many (maybe even most) of the Masters are shooting those guns - they ain't shooting Rugers ( I like Rugers. I compete with one.) The Hammerli 208, the FWB AW93 are popular. So is the Smith 41.

Pete

 

[kutz]

Bullseye Ruger

Yes!!! for the the Ruger MK II (Valquartzenized) for Bullseye competition.

 

[jelenko]

Guys - read the pdf file that FredHunter provided. He's talking about an NRA 'qualification' course that has significantly less accuracy requirements than Bullseye/Leg matches.

 

[Slamfire]

This David Sam's bullseye M92 is very accurate and has a wonderful trigger.

The grip is huge, if you have short fingers you would be better off with a M1911.

 

[copper01]

Just a little information on the program that FredHunter is talking about. It is the NRA/Winchester Marksmanship Qualification Program. The awards are based on acheiving Par scores from the program. The final award, for at least Bullseye Pistol Qualification, is Distinguished Expert. To acheive this you must consistantly shoot NRA expert scores. My daughter who just starting out in Bullseye, as a Junior, is working her way through the program. It gives her some awards that she might not acheive through the NRA Bullseye matches for awhile and keeps her interested.

This is a wholly separate program from the CMP Distinguished Service Pistol and NRA Distinguished Revolver programs.

Brad

 

[FredHunter]

Thanks Brad for pointing people in the right direction.

I appreciate all of the posts and you all have some great ideas. Other than Brad's Daughter, has anyone else attempted or completed the NRA Marksmanship Program and achieved their "Distinguished Expert" rank? If so what gun or guns did you use.

If you know of anyone who has please point them to this thread.

Thanks,
Fred

 

[copper01]

Basically you need a Bullseye gun or something similar that will hold Expert scores.

If you want to do it with Rimfire, most of the target .22's will get the job done. Ruger MKIII, Ruger 22/45, some of the older Buckmarks, some of the old High Standards, S&W 41 and of course the European target pistols (Pardini, Morini, Walther, Feinwerkbau). I use a Ruger MKIII competition and my daughter is using a Target 22/45. I can shoot expert scores with both.

Most of what you see on the line for Centerfire and .45 are accurized 1911's. I have shot expert scores with my SA Range Officer, just not all the time (and that's due to me not the gun). Other than that, outside of dedicated Bullseye guns, I don't have a good idea.

I know there has to be plenty of available guns out there to accomplish this. I think if everyone understands that you need a gun that will shoot expert not high master scores you may get some better feedback.

Brad

 

[stork]

going distinguished

Fred,

This opinion will assume you intend to pursue the CMP Distinguished Marksman designation after going through the NRA/Winchester Marksmanship Qualification Program.

As has been mentioned, if you want to become Bullseye "Distinguished" you must shoot either a Beretta M9, or a 1911 that is similar to an "as issued" 1911.

I would recommend the Springfield Range Officer, but they saw fit to put a beavertail grip safety on it and an extended thumb safety which takes it out of that category.

Go to a few Bullseye matches and let it be known you are looking for a "Hardball Pistol" to try for a distinguished designation. There should be a few guys there who have achieved their distinguished badge and may have a ball gun lying at home rusting away from lack of use. I know I hung onto mine to keep as a backup in case my "wad gun" fails (50+ thousand rounds and still waiting) and to serve as a loaner for guys chasing distinguished. You will have a much better chance at picking up a very good shooting 45 that has had a good trigger job, match barrel, and frame/slide work done than rolling the dice at your LGS.

I would stay away from the M9 for the main reason that Bullseye conventional pistol requires you to shoot a 22, centerfire, and a 45 stage. the M9 would serve you well in the centerfire but would not in the 45. Whereas the 45 would serve as both the centerfire and 45 pistol.

Whatever your decision, enjoy it.

FWIW
Stork

 

[FredHunter]

thanks for the advice Stork.
Fred

 

[aafirearms]

Just chiming in, I am a sponsored shooter, made Presidents Hundred every time I have been to Camp Perry, and also am a Master Gunsmith and have built several Berettas including the ones I use for Bullseye matches. IMHO they are a lot easier to accurize than a 1911; normally to be competitive just requires a match grade barrel (drop-in or semi-drop in work fine) and a trigger job (best to have a gunsmith do this, it requires disassembly of the gun). The steel rail inserts that people talk about are really only necessary if you are planning to put 2,500+ rounds through the gun every year - the inserts are designed to make steel-on-steel instead of steel-on-aluminum contact between the slide and frame (frame is typically aluminum) and therefore make the gun last longer. Also, if the inserts are not done right, they WILL fall out or make the frame unusable if they fail. You don't necessarily need a bushing on the front end of the barrel to stabilize it (the barrel locks up to the slide at the rear, not the front - it is a different design from the 1911) but it will not hurt anything to have a bushing on there if it makes you feel better. If anyone has any specific questions on how to build/accurize an M9, please feel free to contact me directly at [email protected]. www.aafirearmstraining.com -Patrick

 

[wv109323]

99per cent of the bullseye people will use the 1911 platform. Many claim that the SA Range Officer is adequate to get you to Expert or maybe master. Other options are a used Bullseye pistol or one of the high end custom pistols. The other option and probably the most common is to buy a low end plain Jane and have it built as wanted. The last option is more time consuming and difficult for a person entering the sport. I do not think you can get a satisfactory trigger pull with anything but a 1911 in .45 ACP.

 

[tuj]

OK, if you don't care about distinguished, there are only a couple 'out of the box' 1911's that will shoot well enough for 50-yard accuracy.

1. Les Baer PII 1.5". Great gun, usually need a lot of rounds to wear in properly if you get one new. You can find used guns and Les will work on them.

2. Pardini GT-45. Even better than a Les Baer, best trigger I've ever handled in a 45acp pistol. Superb gun, accuracy is there too.

----------

For the .22 portion of the match:

1. Marvel Unit 1 conversion on your 1911 frame. Advantage is that you shoot the same grip and trigger. Disadvantage is that the .22 allows for a 2# trigger while the CF and 45 portions require a 3.5# trigger.

2. Pardini SP. Best competition 22 out there IMHO. Lots of the top shooters using them. Super accurate, superb trigger, excellent ergonomics.

-----------

Other options:

Have a known smith work over a 1911 platform. Warning, this will be just as costly as a Les Baer.

 

[Pete D.]

necro

Pardini GT-45. Even better than a Les Baer, best trigger I've ever handled in a 45acp pistol. Superb gun, accuracy is there too.

+1. Handled a GT-45 at Camp Perry this year....VERY nice.

But, uh.....the information is good but we all realize, of course, that post #16 was written three years ago.

 

[tuj]

I did not realize that... sigh... seems like no one is taking up bullseye any more.

I'm one of the younger crowd that normally gravitates towards IDPA (which I have done too and is fun) and bullseye is my favorite type of competition to shoot particularly the 22 portion.

I just wanted people to realize that the Pardini GT45 is out there and is a fantastic target pistol in 45acp.

 

[Mike OTDP]

Keep the faith, tuj. Some of us understand that there's more to shooting than running around spraying targets at knife-fighting range.

Though the real fun is when you move into the Olympic disciplines.

 

[MrBorland]

Keep the faith, tuj. Some of us understand that there's more to shooting than running around spraying targets at knife-fighting range.

Keep the faith, Mike. Some of us understand there more to running around spraying targets at knife-fighting range than running around spraying targets at knife-fighting range.

 

[HighExpert]

I shoot an S&W 41, an S&W 52 and a Les Baer Premier II. You will need to reload if you plan on competing or be made of money. Money won't hurt anyway. I use Ultradots on everything but my eyes don't work as well with open sights any more. I shoot at least 1,000 rounds a week when just keeping my skills up and as many as 5,000 rounds a week when I was learning. Also, plan on another 1,000 or so dry fires a week. Bullseye is not just a hobby, it becomes an obsession. Prepare yourself. Good luck and good shooting.

 

[lonegunman]

We have a few newer shooters who have had pretty good luck with the Springfield Range Officer, 1911A1 in 45ACP. If you find one with a really solid barrel, slide,frame lock up and a decent trigger you have a pretty good gun to start out with.

You can buy the bits and pieces to remove that stupid trigger lock mainspring housing and replace it with a regular housing and spring. This will usually clean up the trigger a bit. The gun has a decent clone of a Bomar sight.

I have one that shoots 3/4" at 25yds with decent match ammo. Bullseye is a passion and I have been competing for about 25 years. There is no upper limit to guns and accurate guns are a pleasure to shoot. There is something to be said for a hand built 1911. You can get 30,000 rounds out of a well built wad gun, so they are worth the money. The hard part is finding a gunsmith who can actually deliver a functioning, accurate gun when promised for the price agreed upon.

I have an Ed Masaki ball gun that has been my primary ball gun for 15 years. I have medaled in dozens of leg matches with it. At Perry the Beretta has taken over the top spots for several years. I was sponsored for several years and never had the desire to own one. They seemed to break or fail far more often than a 1911.

Younger people seem to like IDPA and USPSA because it is easy and does not require aiming or hard work. You can dress up like a commando and run around for about 9 minutes total in an eight hour day at the range. You shoot about 400 rounds in those 9 minutes at targets up to 15 feet away and spend the rest of the day BS-ing and picking up other peoples brass. I shot several matches and after getting bumped for an hour or two while the "super squads" and other friends of the match organizer got head of line privileges at every stage thought it was a little to close to high school for me.

If you are buying a gun for bullseye and cost is a factor, take a look at the Range Officer or something similar. It will get you started without getting to exotic.