what handgun range to shoot at for HD

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i was recently went to the range with my dad. the RO asked me if i wanted the 15 yard range or the 10 yard range. i chose the 15 yard range. i did pretty good with my ruger p95 and 5.9 grains of power pistol and 115 grain fmj bullets, but i kind of wished i had shot it at 10 yards. so, what handgun range would be best to shoot at for home defense? would it be under 10 yards? i see no use in shooting a pistol at 25 yards, so which range would be best for HD?
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You want to know how fast you can shoot to hit a target of x size at y distance. This just comes from practice at various distances increasing the speed as you go. Try drills where you shoot fast at a big close target for 2-3 shots, then a small distant one for 1-2 shots. This will help you recongnise how fast you can shoot at various targets. The more you shoot the more automatic estimation is.
 
I shoot at man-sized targets at 5 to 10 feet. Sometimes I go for a real long shot--20 feet. The rest is plinking and play acting and bad habits learned on target ranges.

Hitting 1 to 3 felons quickly closeup is the priority. If I lived on a ranch I`d probably get a rifle, too, for distance. But I don`t live on a ranch and no room in my house is 15 yards across.
 
How big is the largest room in your house, measured at the farthest corners? Use that.
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What he said.
If the issue is SD inside the house then that pretty well defines the task. The issue is not going to be, Can he hit targets at a static range in well lit conditions at 10 yards? The issue will be, Can he hit moving, obscured targets at close range (whatever the furthest range in the house is) in low light conditions at very very fast rates?
Obviously there is basic pistol shooting technique to learn. But beyond that the issue is speed and accuracy.
I would add a shot clock to my shooting routine to see how quickly and accurately I could shoot from drawn low ready. Also one handed (each hand).

And ditto on the 5-5-5 rule: 5 feet or less, 5 shots or less, 5 seconds or less. This seems to be the rule in gunfights even back to the Old Western days. I have never seen anything to contradict that.
 
Posted by Bubba613: What he said [(How big is the largest room in your house, measured at the farthest corners? Use that.)].

The issue will be, Can he hit moving, obscured targets at close range (whatever the furthest range in the house is) in low light conditions at very very fast rates?
Obviously there is basic pistol shooting technique to learn. But beyond that the issue is speed and accuracy.
I would add a shot clock to my shooting routine to see how quickly and accurately I could shoot from drawn low ready. Also one handed (each hand).
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I think that is pretty good advice, except for one thing: one should also have the skills to repeatedly and rapidly hit a moving target that is closer than the maximum range. One should therefore also practice at shorter distances. As Sam put it in Post #3,

If you're trying to shoot an attacker at 5 yds, and your practice is geared to chewing the centers out of bullseyes at 20 yds, you're going to die before you get off a shot.

So trying to pick a distance at which you should practice is kind of backwards. You need it all.
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And ditto on the 5-5-5 rule: 5 feet or less, 5 shots or less, 5 seconds or less.
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I do have to disagree on that one. I would not want to give a determined violent criminal actor anywhere near five seconds to attack me at close range. Going back to Sam again:

That means you should be practicing hammering multiple good hits on 3-5 yd. targets at a rate of about 4-5 shots a second, requiring the very briefest flash sight picture for each shot.

And also practicing how/when to take a slightly better sight picture and make the same good hits at 7-10 yds. with a slight reduction in that speed.
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And let's not forget this, also from Sam:

Once you start to get that way of looking at shooting skills, consider the other factors that would attend any defensive shooting situation. You (hopefully) won't just be standing still like a bullet magnet while you're shooting. So you should be practicing moving out of the way while you fire. (Moving off the "line of force.") But your adversary won't be standing still either. Can you make hits on a moving target? Many home defense scenarios involve hunkering down to observe an intruder and using your defensive position wisely. So, you probably need to be practicing shooting around cover. How quickly can you relaod if your gun goes empty? Do you leave the lights on 24/7? Might want to practice manipulating a flashlight and a gun at the same time. Now, what if your gun jams? Can you clear a malfunction quickly enough not to be out of the game? ... and on, and on.

A good defensive shooting instructor can teach you what you should be practicing on your own.
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But let's not forget this from fiddletown, either:

I'll add that it's desirable to allot some of your practice time to shooting at greater distances -- 20 to 25 yards or so. Shooting at longer distances is a good way to develop and maintain trigger control. Trigger control is fundamental, and jerking the trigger even at a close in target can cause a poor hit or miss.
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Practice getting into shooting position from chairs, couches, standing/sitting/laying down, groceries/stuff in one or both hands, everything you would do in normal everyday home life. If a criminal sees you getting out of your car and going in your house with you arms full of Wal-Mart bags, he knows you can't reach for a weapon. Practice dropping the bags and drawing your handgun. Most of this type of stuff can be done at home during dry fire practice (follow all safety rules for dryfiring). I have a buddy who bought a new La-Z-Boy Recliner, and he has a shooting range behind his house. He took his old La-Z-Boy out on the range and practices shooting from it, since he spends a lot of time in his recliner.

I think when it comes to practicing for HD, shooting from contact to 25 yards will cover just about every situation. After you can regularly shoot good groups at 25 yards, then make the target smaller, shoot with strong hand or support hand only, using a light source, and with cover and concealment.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr
 
I think Leon's ".02" is worth taking into account.

I have not yet done most of that myself.
 
For some reason Leon's suggestion reminds me of one of Ken's NTI stories regarding a live-fire scenario which started with the practitioner carrying his "wife's dress" that he'd picked up from the "drycleaner's." The jist of the story was that some participants shot through the exercise one-handed, never having processed the idea that in the event of a life-or-death emergency it would probably be ok to DROP the dress!

Folks minds do funny things under stressful situations outside of their experience zone.
 
When you get good at shooting at 5 or 10 feet, then practice doing an eye/throat jab with your off hand and then shooting at 0 feet.

Needless to say, don`t shoot yourself in practice. Get some Azoom snap caps and practice everything `dry` until you get really good.
 
Most of the shooting schools I have attended use the stats that 85% of most shootings occur within 6 feet, 95% occur within 7 yards. Only 5% occur at greater distances. Strive to be quick and accurate at the closer distances but it doesn't hurt to be proficient out to about 25 yards....Back in my academy days we fired from 50 yards with 4 inch revolvers for qualification scores.
 
Posted by PBR Streetgang: Most of the shooting schools I have attended use the stats that 85% of most shootings occur within 6 feet, 95% occur within 7 yards. Only 5% occur at greater distances.
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At the risk of being repetitious, the only verifiable stats involve LEO encounters, which for reasons discussed above may not reflect civilian SD conditions.

For home defense, which was the original question, things will vary depending upon the house layout and where the attacker(s) and the defender happen to be at the moment of truth.

For SD shootings in the out of doors, we have all read about the Tueller drill, and most of us probably visualize an unpleasantness that unfolds at close range around gasoline pumps, an ATM, or one's automobile.

Seven yards sounds reasonable, but by the time one is able to draw and fire, the attacker may be a lot closer than that. Also, at least one of the incidents described in Tom Givens' Lessons from the Street involved a much larger range. Note that, as in the case of that incident, someone is shooting at you, the distance ceases to be a factor in the A,O,J part of the justification equation.

Strive to be quick and accurate at the closer distances but it doesn't hurt to be proficient out to about 25 yards....
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Good advice, with the emphasis on "quick".
 
The 5-5-5 rule is that the incident is over in 5 seconds or less.
SO people anticipating a failed magazine had better rethink that one.
 
Quote from Dave Harrington ("Super Dave," shot for a couple different factory teams and was the senior weapons instructor at the JFKSWC twice):

"You have to develope strong marksmanship skill. If you shoot large targets at close range all the time, and that is the extent of your training; you can consider that, that will be the extent of your skill, hitting a large target at close range, period. Always focus on strict marksmanship ability."

There is much utility in training to shot small targets at distance. A 6" bull at 50 yds resembles the human eye socket at 10 yds. Being able to make shots at distance increases immensely your tactical options as well. No one in the history of gunfights ever wished they were less accurate, slower, or had less ammo.

-Jenrick
 
Where do they teach this stuff?
If you want to shoot eyeball sized targets at close distances, why would you set a target at 50 yards? Why not set an eyeball sized target at 10 yards?

But that isn't how people shoot. A 90% shooter on the line will be a 10% shooter in self defense. The body is the biggest threat, that is what will get aimed at.
 
Posted by Bubba613:
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The 5-5-5 rule is that the incident is over in 5 seconds or less.
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It's not a rule.

SO people anticipating a failed magazine had better rethink that one.
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I don't know of anyone who anticipates a failed magazine, but many people do believe it prudent to be prepared for replacing a magazine quickly in the event of a malfunction.

None of the five instructors in a class I took last year required more than four and one half seconds to hit each of three targets four times at seven yards--including replacing a magazine.
 
If one is a member of the NRA and receives the American Rifleman magazine the Armed Citizen column is worth reading. After reading this column over period of four plus decades not everyone is a trained “Gunfighter”. Is skill an asset most certainly but circumstance and wiliness to be combative are important. The other thing I practice is avoidance or what is referred to as situational awareness. In the end it may not be your day.
 
After reading this column over period of four plus decades not everyone is a trained “Gunfighter”.

Problem there is, IIRC, that particular database is skewed - it doesn't report instances where 'the good guy' loses... and it does happen.

It's true that many people do prevail in an armed encounter with little or no significant training. It's also true that some people do not.

Is there anyone here who would argue that good training would reduce the student's odds of prevailing in a gunfight?
 
With hand guns, I practice aimed shooting from 7 - 15 yards. I practice point shooting from 0 - 10 yards.

Anything over 15 yards isn't a home defense shooting in my case, since I don't have anything longer than a 15 yard stretch without major obstructions in my house.

If I need to shoot at anything over 15 yards, I'm grabbing the 12 gauge or the Mosin.
 
Posted by Lee Lapin: Problem there is, IIRC, that particular database [(The Armed Citizen)] is skewed - it doesn't report instances where 'the good guy' loses... and it does happen.
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True.

Also, most of the incidents reported have occurred in the home or place of business.

This thread started out with a question about home defense, of course, but many of us are more concerned about defensive use of firearms, when it cannot be avoided, in other locations.

Tom Givens' observation that the reason that most defensive uses of firearms occur in the home is that few citizens carry firearms, coupled with the fact that the vast majority of the defensive uses of firearms reported by Rangemaster graduates have occurred outside the home, was a real eye opener to me.
 
Bubba613: You're missing the point my friend. Shooting a small target at 7yds isn't that hard, most people can punch a one hole group (let's say 1") at 5yds with a modicum of regularity. Most people can NOT keep all their rounds in the black at 50 yds on a 6" bulls eye (which being ten times further away should actually only need to be 5" inches to have the equivalent group size), and the question is why is that? The answer is that minor inconsistencies in technique that do not arise at 5 yds are magnified and readily apparent at 50 yds. If we can train to shoot acceptable groups at 50 yds, then shooting at closer ranges holds no issues, the inverse is not true.

I agree that hit rates drop dramatically in real life, as opposed to flat ranges, and I think Louis Awerbuck has some great ideas on how to fix that. I do however disagree that the body will always be aimed at, and that is all that needs to be trained at. When shooting "belt buckle to belt buckle" (eg square to each other) I agree, but the majority of the time people move, use cover, etc. That is where having the ability to engage small precise targets is advantageous, the vital area on the human torso is about 4" across when viewed from the side, it doesn't matter whether it's a large male or small female, have it canted from vertical as well and suddenly your area to engage shrinks to a 2"-3" circle.

Flat range training on flat paper targets has as much bearing to a gun fight as a hitting the punching bag does to a boxing match. They both build skills and techniques needed, but if that's the only training you do, it leaves your sorely unprepared for the reality of the event.

-Jenrick
 
Most people cannot shoot a very small target at 5 yards within 2 seconds, which is usually what is required.
If the task is to shoot very accurately at short distances in the smallest amount of time then commonsense would dictate training like that. There is no need, imo, for the average person to shoot at 50 yards. This is especially so when the concern is inside the home.
 
Most people cannot shoot a very small target at 5 yards within 2 seconds, which is usually what is required.
If the task is to shoot very accurately at short distances in the smallest amount of time then commonsense would dictate training like that. There is no need, imo, for the average person to shoot at 50 yards. This is especially so when the concern is inside the home.
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Again minor inconsistencies in technique that are not readily apparent at close ranges are easily apparent at long distance. I'm not saying do all your training at long distance, I am saying don't do all your training at close distances. Being able to make a solid hit at any distance from 0-100 yds means you have the marksmanship ability to engage whatever target you are presented during a SD incident. Being able to hammer a larger target at closer distance means you have the ability to hit a large target up close, no more.

Look at any top tier instructor (Paul Howe, Pat McNamara, Dave Harrington, Louis Awerbuck, Jim Smith, Larry Vickers, Kyle Lamb, etc.) all stress the ability to make surgical hits. All of these instructors have BTDT, and they firmly believe in the ability to make hits on small targets beyond what is consider traditional SD ranges.

You lose nothing by training to shoot at distance. Where as shooting only at short ranges doesn't help you at all once the distance increases.

-Jenrick
 
I'm gonna sound like a broken record but why does it seem I am probably the only one that has been point shooting for 60yrs and distance doesn't mean squat to about 25yds or so. I won't win a bullseye match but at around 15-20yds I pick a spot like a shirt button to concentrate on and I may not hit it, but close by a few inches fast and first will work. I pick random targets at random heights and distances and it works for me to practice with cans, small rocks targets etc.
 
You hit within a few inches of a shirt button at twenty yards, point shooting? How many rounds/years did it take you to get to that level of proficiency? All sixty? Or just 30 of them? Most shooters can't do that. Most GOOD shooters can't do that. Most REALLY good shooters can't point shoot at 20-25 yds. and hit well enough for comfort.

I'd love to see that done, and timed against a proficient shooter who's using the sights. How much faster would you be?

Are you doing real, strictly defined "point shooting" where the gun is not in the line of sight? Or is what you're referring to as point shooting, actually a kind of sighted shooting that indexes off the silhouette of the gun? Can you pick up just ANY gun and pull that off, or just with your preferred sidearm?

You may indeed be a prodigy, or just so in tune with your gun after sixty years that what you can do does not translate easily into something that a more average person needing to learn to shoot could get into their skill set in a timely manner.
 
"You lose nothing by training to shoot at distance. Where as shooting only at short ranges doesn't help you at all once the distance increases."

For home defense, your most likely range will be somewhere between point blank and 30 feet (10 yards). If you train to draw and double-tap a target at 10 yards, you'll be able to hit it at any closer distance.

The title of the thread is about HD, so that about covers it.

There was a comment made about shooting at much farther distances. While that situation might present itself, it's not likely. Regardless, the style of shooting is vastly different than HD. I submit one needs to be able to do both. That is, they should be able to aim via learned body position with both speed and accuracy. However, if needed, they should be able to use sights to accurately hit a man-sized target at 50 yrds while standing, prone, or on a rest.
 
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