What if SCOTUS review of Parker vs. D.C. doesn't go our way?

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30 cal slob

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what next, assuming that SCOTUS grants cert (not a slam-dunk at this point) and, assuming the worst case, that SCOTUS rules for the collective rights interpretation of the 2A?

what are our (realistic) options next?

:evil::evil::evil::evil::evil:

p.s. does this count as a "SHTF" type of event? If so, what gun for SCOTUS SHTF? :neener:
 
EDIT: Sorry, read your question backwards.


Worst case scenario for what happens if they read it as a collective rights? Revolution, followed by a massive crackdown and virtual slavery. Of course, thats absolute worst case scenario. Probably won't happen.
 
Realistic possibilities are as follows:

SHTF (possible, not likely though, at least not in the form we all imagine)

Political coup (slightly more plausible than a grass-roots rebellion)

Legitimate lawmaking to reestablish the protected RKBA

Spiral into a socialist state
 
All Bets Would Be Off.

The word is that the Supremes have been sabotaging cert on 2A for decades to prevent a collective ruling, and nothing has changed that balance. If cert's denied, that'll be the underlying reason.
 
If the constitution's 2nd amendment gets inturpreted as a group right rather that an individual right, things will get much more Canadian/Australian-like with the Democrates in power.
We'll see gun registration, specific type bans, general catagory bans, lawsuits, taxes and a ton of restrictions.
Our reaction to the above? I have no guesses except that we'll probably take it lying down until the next election.
 
"What if..."

I guess I'll have to rely on the Virginia Constitution:

"“A well regulated militia composed of the body of the people trained to arms, is a proper, natural and safe defense for a free state; therefore, the right of the people to bear arms shall not be infringed.” "
 
I think firearm restrictions would just draw protest.

Firearm confiscation = bloodbath.

Judges may rule philosophically, but they're not stupid. As a judge you ARE accountable for your rulings and I doubt a judge would issue a ruling that would negatively affect so many innocent people, especially when that many innocents have the potential to "over-rule" you.
 
Stop kidding yourselves...

Probably NOTHING would happen. People put up with all sorts of crap in this country and do nothing about it. And they'll do nothing all the way to the concentration camps.

As for me, and at the very least, Civil Disobedience has always been a valid option. I exercise it regularly.

As for SCOTUS, I don't care what it rules unless it is confirming a right we have. Otherwise, to hell with what those judges say.

-- John D.
 
More than likely, nothing will happen. Most "pro-gun" folks are conservatives, and conservatives will defend the status quo, no matter how screwed up it really is.
 
The age of SCOTUS Judges being personally accountable for their ruling has long since passed. Just look at how they ruled on personal property rights. I guess we can keep our guns until a corporation or township needs them for tax purposes...:barf:

One of the first things they teach you in Constitutional Law is how the Supreme Court is accountable and needs to carefully adjudicate the cases to reflect public sentiment (within the confines of interpretation of intent of the Founding Fathers). They have no police force. They have no military. There is no actual force behind their rulings.

If they continue to rule contrary to public opinion, they lose all credibility, thereby destroying any sense of checks and balances.
 
many states have individual arms bearing in their own constitutions, so in many places I dont think it would matter. In the long run I imagine it would cause some problems though.
 
HUMONGO said:
The age of SCOTUS Judges being personally accountable for their ruling has long since passed.

When were Supreme Court Justices "held personally accountable" for their rulings? By whom, and why?

Mike
 
JohnBT....I am right there with you...In Richmond.

I saw Levy, the parker atty speak at U of R earlier this year. Glad he is on our side. Hope it all works out well!!

Ric
 
Personally, if Parker gets cert, my gut tells me we'll get a "win", the 2nd Amendment scholarship, even by liberal anti's who don't like their conclusions admitting it's an individual right is overwhelming. However, it will probably be a narrow ruling, that it's an individual right, but that "reasonable" restrictions are permitted.

Then both sides have standing to duke out what "reasonable" means, between single shot rifles kept at secure armories and gun clubs on one side, and pre-NFA '34 on the other, for the next 75 years until one side or another can find the "perfect storm" that allows us to drag the SCOTUS back into it, kicking and screaming.

One thing I'll note, looking at another "definitive" case by way of analogy, Roe V. Wade back in '73 did nothing to thwart the ardor of pro-life or pro-choice forces. And it's hard to say how much of the increase in abortion is solely from that decision, or how much the liberalization of social mores contributed etc. A Roe loss could have arguably left us with largely the same results we see today. Pro-choice forces could have fought harder at the state level, and the net result, especially in liberal states and liberal large urban areas, might still be the same today.

Similarly, a Parker loss could just as easily ignite the RKBA-supporting public into a fervor, and we'll keep fighting as we've had to for the past 75 years, taking our losses and gains legislatively, under attack from those who deny the individual rights interpretation. So from the standpoint that we now operate under a de-facto "Parker Loss" climate, one way of looking at it says we've got nothing to lose.
 
When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns. I guess there will just be another 100,000,000 outlaws in the Peoples Republic of America.
 
If the SCOTUS gives audience to the case, I believe that the 2nd Amendment will stand as 'The right of THE PEOPLE'.

However. . . nothing says that the SCOTUS has to 'hear' the case.
They may say that the Appeals Court ruling stands, or, 'We will not hear the case'.

As stated on another forum, across the street. . . .
My feelings right now are:

Elated
Fear
Elated
Fear
Elated
Fear
Elated
Fear
 
Personally, at this point, it really makes no never mind to me one way or the other. I am not giving up what I got and if they want to make em illegal or what ever, so be it.
 
Wait a minute here, me boyos. If the Supreme Court holds that the Second is a collective right in this case, nothing happens apart from the DC ban getting put back in effect. That's it. The Court is not going to be ordering confiscations. All state protections would remain in place. The only difference would be, the whole nation would be in the same boat those of us in "collective rights" circuits have been in for many decades now.

When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns. I guess there will just be another 100,000,000 outlaws in the Peoples Republic of America.

This is truly bizarre. Where are you getting the idea that the Court is going to order confiscation or outlaw guns? Even a de facto elimination of the Second will not end in confiscation. The Court does not pass laws.

many states have individual arms bearing in their own constitutions, so in many places I dont think it would matter. In the long run I imagine it would cause some problems though.

That's right. The only places it will make a difference are those within federal circuits where the individual right interpretation has either held sway or held some significant ground. These will likely face reversal. The rest of the nation would be in the same boat as all the states in the 9th circuit, that's all.
 
Out of 100,000,000 gun owners, only 4%-6% care enough about their rights to join NRA, GOA, 2A or the local gun rights organization, There is no way short of widespread confiscation there would be a "revolution", even then it would probably just mean a surge in voting, and what the media would describe as "small groups of terrorists and insurgent copycats". A collective rights ruling would basically give the Feds, states and localities a blank check for any infringements they can pass which has basically been going on for a few decades now. it would probably just accelerate unless reps would risk losing an unacceptable number of votes. The constitution is just a piece of paper, its the will or apathy of the people that determine it's influence on our society.
 
Constitutional law gets pretty complicated once you start to really look into it. I'm no lawyer, but I think I can offer a few useful points here:

1) The 2nd is not (yet) "incorporated", basically meaning that it applies to the feds only, not the states. Currently, states (and cities) are free to ban guns as much as they like.

2) FEDERAL LAW TRUMPS STATE LAW. This means that you would have to follow the rules laid down by the feds even if you lived in a state with a state constitution that protected gun ownership. That state constitution would only prevent your state from enacting laws banning guns, and would not inhibit the feds from banning guns in your state.

3) If we lose big here, this would mean that the feds are free to ban guns in pretty much any way they like. Once the Democrats get back, they might well take advantage of this.

So what would happen? If we get a Democrat in '08, we could certainly expect a real push for some noxious federal gun laws - basically, they would pass whatever they thought they could get away with, and they would certainly want to tighten the rules even further over time. It would be a pretty unpleasant outcome.

So far as I can tell, a 'collective right' interpretation offers no individual protection whatsoever.
 
That's what I was talking about, Cosmoline, what MikeJackmin said.

Much like medical Cannabis in Califonia.

I realize that there will not be immediate consfications if it is decided to be a collective right. But we all know what happens when the .gov is given(or usurps) a little power.

Like I said before...whatever.
 
3) If we lose big here, this would mean that the feds are free to ban guns in pretty much any way they like. Once the Democrats get back, they might well take advantage of this.

How is that a change? The Supreme Court has done nothing to stop the feds anyway. They approved FDR's gun ban, and have failed to block or even limit all the bans and restrictions since, at least under the Second. Their holding in Lopez had to do with the commerce clause, and their limitation on the old NICS system was made moot.

Put another way--the floodgates are open and have been open for generations now. The worst that could happen is they stay open or open a little more. But if we WIN, those gates start to swing shut and THAT will be a potentially enormous shift.

Besides, I'm cautiously optimistic about this whole thing. The current Court is exceedingly conservative. It's one of the few good things GW has given us, and in the end it may make up for his many shortcomings. I cannot see them siding with the tired old collective rights interpretation. They may keep their holding limited. Indeed they probably will. But I think they'll come down on our side.

A collective rights ruling would basically give the Feds, states and localities a blank check for any infringements they can pass which has basically been going on for a few decades now

It would not overturn existing state protections. So if state constitutional law gives an express RKBA, that won't be effected. As far as the feds--nobody has ever bounced their checks anyway. The only real limitation on them has been political, not legal.
 
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