What if you're not rich

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

When I took my CPL class, I heard the "$10,000 decision" lecture. I am aware that if I am involved in an SD shooting, at minimum it will cost me about $10,000 to sort out.

Now I know there are a lot of people on this forum who have the funds to purchase multiple ARs, expensive handguns, tens of thousands of rounds of ammo, and $5,000 gun safes. Every time I see a "post your collection" thread I am amazed at the amount of disposable income THR members have to spend on firearms. I'm already selling one of my weapons, and once I do that, I can count the number of firearms I own on 1 hand.

So what if you're poor? I'm a college student, I drive an 89 Accord, and live in a 1 bedroom apt near the ghetto. I make just about enough money to stay alive while the Army helps with college tuition. So what happens to people who don't even have $1,000 lying around, much less 10? Are there public defenders for civil court if the family of the criminal sues you?

I'm not gonna just roll over and let a criminal threaten my life or worse, but at the same time, I can't imagine I'll have much of a life left to return to once I sell every single thing I own and drop out of school to pay legal fees if something happens.

 

[Zoogster]

Then you may not get justice unless you are able to finance it for a decade or two.

It is the best system in the world, it is still far from perfect.

$10,000? Ha that is if it is absolutely straight forward (most cases are not even if you think they are) and clear and does not make it to trial.

Usualy it will be several times that amount. Add another zero on that figure.

Many places there will be both the criminal and the civil trial.

Basicly you better not shoot anyone, unless absolutely necessary to save yourself or someone else. If it was absolutely necessary then the loans you will need to take out and pay over the next decade won't be as important.
Oh you better have good credit and qualify for said loans.

Yes someone such as yourself would have thier quality of life severely impacted for a large segment of thier life even if they won at trial.

However if you lose at trial due to poor legal defense, those 20+ years of your life behind bars would have produced more money than the cost of a good attorney.
You don't get to say "Wait I don't like the outcome, I have changed my mind and actualy do want to go into debt for good legal representation, let's start over".

 

[Ohio Rifleman]

Hope your state passes the Castle Doctrine, like Ohio recently did. I believe that should keep civil lawsuits at bay, and should help keep legal fees down. Correct me if I'm wrong, please.

 

[ilbob]

better alive and in debt than dead.

 

[guntotinguy]

better alive and in debt than dead.

+ 1 for sure...

 

[dmxx9900]

Its much harder for the criminals family to sue you in civil court so the price of a criminal court and attorney will all that will be needed.
Still expensive but not enough to permanently mess your financial life up if your justified in your self defense shooting.

This is in Florida and many other states the castle doctrine is the most reasonable legislation to pass in years it gives the victim a right to defend themselves and others and not have to worry about civil lawsuits and other major hoopla just being justified in criminal court that you felt you were threatened and were afraid of serious injury or death from whoever broke in your house or tried to assault you in public.

 

[brickeyee]

$10,000 is a joke.

If you could find a $100 an hour lawyer you have 100 hours of time.
A decent attorney is far more likely to run $300+ per hour, and a case will take at least a couple hundred hours.


You are actually pretty 'suit proof' since you have no assets that can be seized.

If you need to use a gun for self defense, the possible costs in $$ should be the last thing on your mind.

 

[Bubbles]

I make just about enough money to stay alive while the Army helps with college tuition.

Are you active duty? I thought that folks in the military could get legal help at little or no cost if they needed it.

 

[M1911]

When I took my CPL class, I heard the "$10,000 decision" lecture. I am aware that if I am involved in an SD shooting, at minimum it will cost me about $10,000 to sort out.

Sorry, but $10,000 won't even get the meter running for many attorneys. Recently I was at a seminar where the speakers included two prominent MA criminal defense attorneys. They said that they charge about $75k + expenses to defend a charge of murder. That is actually a significant discount on their normal hourly rate. They said that if they charged their normal hourly rate on a murder case, that almost no one would be able to afford it.

In a criminal trial, the state will appoint an attorney if you can't afford one. That isn't true for a civil trial. However, if you are broke, no personal liability attorney is going to sue you -- if there is no pot of gold for him to go after, there is no point in suing you.

Think about it this way: don't use your gun unless you (or another innocent) are gonna DIE RIGHT NOW!

 

[DoubleTapDrew]

You are actually pretty 'suit proof' since you have no assets that can be seized.

+1. You can get a public defender if criminal charges are brought up, and, no offense, but you aren't worth suing (at this point in your life) because you don't have any $$ or assets they can go after.

 

[TX1911fan]

There are two different legal actions you have to consider. If you are charged criminally, and cannot afford an attorney, one will be provided to you at taxpayer expense. While the media likes to portray public defenders as buffoons and idiots, the vast majority are good, dedicated lawyers who provide good services for their clients. They tend to be dramatically overworked though. This may mean you don't get the best representation you could have.

Then there is a civil action that the criminal, or his family, may try to bring against you. There is no free attorney service here, as you are not guaranteed representation in a civil case by the Constitution as you are in a criminal case. However, if you truly have nothing, you are "judgment proof" meaning that even if they win their suit against you, what can they take? Nothing, so you really have no worries.

If you are really concerned, you can look into the CCW insurance through the NRA. I don't think it is terribly expensive.

 

[rdalrymple]

Work for a good castle doctrine law if your state doesn't already have one.

(emphasis mine) SECTION 16-11-450. Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil actions; law enforcement officer exception; costs.

(A) A person who uses deadly force as permitted by the provisions of this article or another applicable provision of law is justified in using deadly force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of deadly force, unless the person against whom deadly force was used is a law enforcement officer acting in the performance of his official duties and he identifies himself in accordance with applicable law or the person using deadly force knows or reasonably should have known that the person is a law enforcement officer.

(B) A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use of deadly force as described in subsection (A), but the agency may not arrest the person for using deadly force unless probable cause exists that the deadly force used was unlawful.

(C) The court shall award reasonable attorneys' fees, court costs, compensation for loss of income, and all expenses incurred by the defendant in defense of a civil action brought by a plaintiff if the court finds that the defendant is immune from prosecution as provided in subsection (A).

 

[TexasRifleman]

I'm not gonna just roll over and let a criminal threaten my life or worse, but at the same time, I can't imagine I'll have much of a life left to return to once I sell every single thing I own and drop out of school to pay legal fees if something happens.

As above, work for a Castle Doctrine in your state or move to a state that respects your right to stay alive.

But in the end alive and in debt is better than dead.

 

[Hawk]

I'll be the voice of dissent: limited funds is pretty much proof against civil suits provided you're not employed by an agency with deep pockets (taxpayer funded) or paid up on some spectacular insurance.

A clean DGU should get no-billed. If something haywires and a criminal trial is brought you get a public defender and hope for the best.

Civil aftermath: How many of these are brought by attorneys working on contingency? From what I've seen, quite a few. No lawyer is going to place his own or his firms bottom line in jeopardy for a percentage of ... wait for it ... nothing. There's no future in it.

If the shooting was by a LEO and the agency could be chased, that's different. Ditto if the shooting was in any way tied to one's employment and one's employer has means.

People in the credit field refer to such individuals as "untouchable". It has nothing to do with caste systems and everything to do with a perceived waste of resources in collecting that which isn't there. The phrase "blood from a turnip" comes to mind. 35% of zero net worth is zero - always was, always will be. Of course, if the perps family is independently wealthy they can hire a law firm to chase a pointless civil award but in my informal reading I've found very few perps getting shot named Vanderbilt or Hilton or Rockefeller.

If you have the stomach for it, peruse Brady's legal site. The suits are brought against dealers, distributors, manufacturers and the like. Some kid shoots a teacher, who gets sued? The manufacturer of the cheap pistol and the distributor - the kid never hit the radar.

Who gets sued when a couple whackos start shooting up DC and environs? Bushmaster, of course.

I'd guess a net worth of at least a million would be needed before I'd seriously worry about the dreaded "civil aftermath" barring agency employment or godlike insurance policies.

 

[M1911]

A clean DGU should get no-billed.

I think that is somewhat dependent upon the jurisdiction. It would not surprise me that the same incident that would get a no-bill in Grand Prairie, TX, may well result in an indictment in Boston, MA.

 

[armoredman]

AZ has at least two places in law where justified conduct is not subject to civil suit.

 

[buzz_knox]

I'd guess a net worth of at least a million would be needed before I'd seriously worry about the dreaded "civil aftermath" barring agency employment or godlike insurance policies.

When you consider that future earnings can be garnished, a lot of people fall under that $1 million limit. You can try bankruptcy, but that carries a host of problems in and of itself.

The ultimate decision is whether you want to focus on saving your life or your worldy possessions. If you don't focus on the former, you may not be around to enjoy the latter anyway.

 

[Right Wing Wacko]

In WA:

RCW 9A.16.110
Defending against violent crime — Reimbursement.

(1) No person in the state shall be placed in legal jeopardy of any kind whatsoever for protecting by any reasonable means necessary, himself or herself, his or her family, or his or her real or personal property, or for coming to the aid of another who is in imminent danger of or the victim of assault, robbery, kidnapping, arson, burglary, rape, murder, or any other violent crime as defined in RCW 9.94A.030.

(2) When a person charged with a crime listed in subsection (1) of this section is found not guilty by reason of self-defense, the state of Washington shall reimburse the defendant for all reasonable costs, including loss of time, legal fees incurred, and other expenses involved in his or her defense. This reimbursement is not an independent cause of action. To award these reasonable costs the trier of fact must find that the defendant's claim of self-defense was sustained by a preponderance of the evidence. If the trier of fact makes a determination of self-defense, the judge shall determine the amount of the award.

Of course... you have to get yourself found not guilty first... but at least a good attorney that is confident you have a case will not be reluctant to help.

 

[bruss01]

TO -

No, you're not mistaken. It's a very big decision to pull the trigger, even if you are 100% justified in doing so. If you're wrong, or others see it differently, it may cost you years of your life spent in jail. It almost surely will cost you hundereds or thousands of dollars and years of waiting just to clear your name, not to mention the cost of losing your firearm (likely in many places) and also possibly being sued by the one you have to shoot or their surviving family. It will cost you sleepless nights wondering what you could have or should have done differently.

This issue gets brought up in almost every firearms class I have ever taken. There are so many people who have a bravado attutude of "I'll just plug any sucker that tries to pull any shizzle like that..." without realizing that even if you are 100% RIGHT - you may be letting yourself in for a world of hurt. Money, freedom, peace - these are all things that you may sacrifice in a 100% justifiable shooting.

The lesson is be as careful as you can to avoid those situations. Sure, you have a right to walk down this side of the street, no one's saying you don't... but see that alleyway up ahead? At this time of night? In this part of town? Maybe you don't want to walk down that way and find out what lurks in the darkness... I'm just sayin'... Or maybe even though you're in the right, you don't want to get into a pissing contest with the meathead that's decided to get all in your face... maybe you shrug and say, "y'know pal, I'm startin' to see things your way, maybe you're right, I think I'll just go home now - see ya". Because if he gets pissed enough, he might start something that YOU have to finish, and end up costing you money, freedom, and peace... get the drift?

9/10ths of fixing trouble involves avoiding it before it happens. You don't put yourself in a dicey position, you don't have to defend yourself from a thug, then you don't have to defend yourself from the system. It's about learning to anticipate and avoid situations that might put you where you don't want to be. Now, true, trouble doesn't always expect an engraved invitation, sometimes it just crashes the party. You can't help what other people do, the choices they make. But you CAN control the choices YOU make. I advise you make them with the $10,000 rule in mind.

Good luck and best wishes.

 

[Prince Yamato]

The Castle Doctrine is not the wild card everyone paints it to be. Look, you could theoretically get sued for anything. Your chances of getting sued are less if you follow the law to the letter.

Is there a duty to retreat in your state? Well, if you're attacked, you retreat as far as you can go safely. If it's 2 steps back and then you have to shoot, so be it. That's what you tell the court. You say, "I retreated as far as I could go and then I was forced to defend myself."

If there isn't, find out how far the Castle Doctrine extends. Avoid shooting people outside home. A lot of these home defense cases that go to court are because Mr. Smith grabs his gun and goes outside to check on a threat. If there's a threat outside your home, call the cops and sit tight with your gun. There will no chance that the court will perceive you as "looking for trouble".

Despite the posts you see here, the majority of courts in this country do act on some sort of common sense principle.

Other things to consider: do you have a criminal record? The cleaner your record, the better. Let's say you shoot someone in defense and the police come by. They'll most likely put your name in a computer. No record? Great. The police will probably say, "here's a law abiding guy who had his life threatened." Multiple citations, arrests for disorderly conduct... flags go up.

Another thought: Does Apartment Insurance cover such incidents?

 

[Quoheleth]

better alive and in debt than dead

Some days, I wonder...

For what it's worth, taurusowner, I feel the same way - in awe at what some THR folks are able to acquire. I'm not jealous, really; more amazed. I have to plan ahead a month or two to put together an order for 2000 cast bullets (about $100) and have to roll quarters for an aeon to buy a new gun (or trade/sell something else). Some, it seems, can walk into a LGS and pick up the flavor of the week. I'm glad some folks can do that - really. And I'm glad I am where I am (for the most part ) because it does help me appreciate what I do have.

Now, if I can just get the other shoe to keep from falling any more, and since it is already raining, if it would just stop pouring, I would be much happier. Just spent 2 hours cramped up under my kitchen sink fixing leaking pipes (only three trips to the hardware store!), four hours last Saturday cutting up a tree that landed in my back yard and on the corner of my house, and have to scrape up some cha-ching to get my master cylinder replaced on my car plus figure out why there is mold in my daughter's closet.

Time to go to auctionarms and drool, while drowning my sorrows in the lingering scent of Hoppes #9.

Q

 

[buzz_knox]

For what it's worth, taurusowner, I feel the same way - in awe at what some THR folks are able to acquire. I'm not jealous, really; more amazed.

When it comes to judgments and what you are risking, don't think a month ahead. Think of the rest of your working life. You'll be amazed what you can accumulate over such a term.

 

[cmidkiff]

If I have to shoot someone, it will be in defense of my life or my family. There's no way that any 'future considerations' are going to prevent me from taking that action, or being prepared in case need arises.

Oh, and I do know a good self defense lawyer, and carry his card. He's not cheap, but when push comes to shove, you do what you have to do.

MO now has a good castle doctrine law. It was a long, hard fight, on the part of many people joined in purpose to get it done. I put forth minimal personal effort to make that happen... a few small donations, lots of emailing and letter writing, and a few phone calls. Together with hundreds of like minded citizens, it was enough. There's no reason why every state can't have a similar law, provided it's citizens are willing to put forth that minimum of effort. If you're not already, get active in your state Pro2A groups!

 

[Shung]

my grand grand father who made WWI and who I have known a few years used to say : (translated) Better an expensive trial than a coffin !

 

[ants]

We have THR members who have been in legal self defense shootings.
Perhaps they can post and tell us the total cost.