What is .308 Win recoil like?

[P. Plainsman]

I'm gonna need to get a first real rifle soon -- probably a bolt-action. I don't expect to accumulate all that many other rifles; I'm more of a revolver guy.

The .308 has often been described as the all-around rifle caliber. Ammo is relatively cheap. Find myself attracted to its versatility and power, but am also looking at the .243 as a low-recoil alternative.

How much does a typical .308 round kick in a 6.5 to 7 pound bolt rifle?

It may be helpful to compare it to known quantities. The two centerfire longarms that I have experience with are my 12 gauge 18" barrel Remington 870 Express Synthetic and my Marlin 1894C .357 Mag lever carbine. I find full-power 2 3/4" "magnum" buck loads to be rather unpleasant in the 870, but I can manage them. I can shoot target loads and the Remington "Managed Recoil" buck loads in the 870 with no problem. Likewise (not surprisingly), the Marlin's recoil is no problem for me even with "heavy" .357 Mag ammo.

Thanks for helping a novice rifleman out.

 

[Sewerman]

recoil from a .308 isnt that bad, i have a saiga in 7.62x39mm and anFal in .308 and the saiga definitly kicks harder.

 

[Father Knows Best]

Well, a typical .308 Winchester load is a 150-180 grain bullet with a muzzle velocity of 2600-2800 fps. It produces a fair amount of recoil -- enough that quite few people find it uncomfortable in a lightweight bolt gun. It is considerably less than the big magnums, however, and is considered to be quite mild in gas-operated guns.

There are "managed recoil" loads available for .308, of course. Remington offers one with a 125 grain bullet at 2660 fps.

If you really are recoil sensitive, it makes more sense to go with a lighter caliber to begin with than it does to try and download .308. The .243 is an excellent choice, and is definitely softer shooting. Switching to a heavier gun, or a gas-operated one, will also help.

 

[Fletchette]

Recoil, especially 'felt recoil' is very subjective. It can vary from gun to gun and person to person.

A .308 out of a semi-auto is not that bad at all. Out of a light weight bolt action it may startle a novice. If you have a hard butt plate and wear a thin shirt you may get some mild bruising. I'd say a .308 is less recoil than both of the 2 3/4 in 12 gauge pumps you describe.

If you do not plan on buying many rifles, stick to the easy to find calibers. .308 will be available for a long time, and parts for the gun will also be more available than for a specialty caliber.

If you can handle the 12 gauges, then a .308 with a good rubber butt plate should be fine.

 

[USSR]

If you can handle a 12 guage full-power 2 3/4" "magnum" buckshot load, you will have no problem with a .308 rifle. That being said, I question your wanting a 6.5-7.0 pound bolt action rifle. A rifle that light would have a pencil-thin barrel which would not be the best thing in the world for accuracy. You would be better off with something a little bit heavier, both from an accuracy viewpoint as well as recoil.

Don

 

[Werewolf]

I've got a CZ 550 American in .308. To me the recoil is about 1/2 to 2/3 that of a 2 3/4" 12ga out of a 20" SXS coach gun. The first time I fired the .308 I was a bit surprised at the recoil but got used to it quickly. The recoil is significantly greater than the same .308 out of a semi-auto Garand rebarreled to that caliber. I can go thru about 30 or 40 rounds before it gets uncomfortable.

I question your wanting a 6.5-7.0 pound bolt action rifle. A rifle that light would have a pencil-thin barrel which would not be the best thing in the world for accuracy.

Uhhhhh.... NO! The CZ 550 American I own weighs in at 7.3 pounds and has a barrel with a greater diameter than either the Garand or Saiga rifle I own. The CZ is very accurate and IMO is just a bit less accurate out of the box than a corresponding Savage FP-10 or FP-110.

 

[Father Knows Best]

A rifle that light would have a pencil-thin barrel which would not be the best thing in the world for accuracy.

Barrels do not have to be heavy to be accurate. Accuracy comes from shot-to-shot consistency, which has little or nothing to do with barrel weight. Heavier barrels heat up (and cool down) slower, which can improve accuracy when shooting strings of shots, and they are also stiffer which helps resist the effects of pressure on the barrel from the stock, slings, rests, etc. If you know how to use the rifle, however, a thin barrel can be just as accurate on the first shot as any heavy barrel, and the thin barrel will be a lot more comfortable to carry while you're hiking through the woods for several days.

 

[P. Plainsman]

Am appreciating the helpful feedback, folks. Thanks.

Actually, I took the 6.5 to 7 lb figure from the (empty) weight of the standard Browning A-Bolt II Medallion, which is a rifle that I'm giving serious consideration, whether in .243 or .308. I take it that's on the light side?

Thanks again.

 

[goon]

Shooting offhand I find a bolt action .308 to be OK. From the bench it will eventually beat the snot out of you in a 6 or 7 pound gun unless you are shooting lighter loads. In my FAL it is a pussycat to shoot. Much more controllable and user friendly than my AK.
At any rate, it doesn't kick so much that you couldn't get through 10 rounds or so at the range every weekend.
I routinely put 60 or more rounds through my Mosins from a sitting position or shooting from the bench with offhand shooting mixed in. I wear my bruised shoulder with pride and show it off to anyone who gives me half a chance.


For accuracy, the Savage Scout .308 I had would put three shots into a dime sized group at 100 yards with my handloads using Winchester 748 and Speer 165 grain BTSP bullets. It would do this if I allowed it to cool between shots. I could fire two at a time and they would be touching. Three shots and the third would go about 2" high and to the right. Not dead on, but acceptable for hunting. The fourth would land about 4" high. Thin barrels have more trouble with rapid firing because of heat, but they can still shoot.

 

[nyresq]

factory quotes of weight are for the bare rifle. For a sporter weight barrel, 6.5-7.0lbs are common for most "hunting rifles". Heavy barrel Varmint and target rifles start in the 8.5-9.5lb range for the bare rifle.

add another pound or two for a scope, rings, mounts, a sling and anything else you add to it like a bipod etc. a 7lb hunting rifle very quickly becomes a 8.5lb hunting rifle or a 14lb target rifle.

 

[cracked butt]

Recoil from something like a .308 isn't going to be punishing so long as the rifle fits you well. If the stock is too short or too long, or if you can't get a good cheek weld to use the sights, recoil is going to be a lot more noticeable.

I really don't consider anything 30-06 or lighter to have painful recoil, though I have a springfield rifle in 30-06 that is downright painful to shoot because it doesn't fit me right, so now I only shoot cast lead bullets through it.

 

[USSR]

Barrels do not have to be heavy to be accurate. Accuracy comes from shot-to-shot consistency, which has little or nothing to do with barrel weight.

Wow, do you realize that you are about to completely change the long range target shooting field? All the competitive target shooters in the world will be trading in those heavy barrels for new lightweight barrels and establishing new world records with pencil-thin barrels. Think of all the steel that will be saved. If you really believe what you said, I would happily invite you to shoot targets at long range to see for yourself the difference that barrel weight makes in regards to accuracy.

Don

 

[Byron Quick]

I have several .308 rifles. The recoil is not a problem. As has been stated, stock fit is very important.

My last purchase was a CZ 550FS. I was curious about the European style buttstock after the surprisingly light recoil of a BRNO 602ZKK in .458 Winchester Magnum. This style of buttstock seems to me to reduce felt recoil. Anyone else noticed this?

 

[Murphster]

This might help:

http://www.accuratereloading.com/recoil.html

 

[Browns Fan]

I have a Browning abolt .308 w/boss that I thought was mild in recoil, until I took it out to the range to sight it in for this season with just 14 rounds. It is the first time I have fired it wearing just a t-shirt, and I got really hammered. Yes, held the stock tightly against my shoulder. No, I am not a particularly "sensitive" guy. I have lifted weights regularly for almost 30 yrs, I had to lay off chest/shoulder work for almost 3 weeks for the bruising to heal.

 

[beerslurpy]

Thin barrel guns can be perfectly accurate if you let them cool down a bit between shots. Taking one shot every 1-2 minutes is pretty much like shooting cold in my experience. And that is way more than you are likely to take as a hunter. Thin barrels supposedly suffer from accuracy with a suppressor mounte though. At least that is what they told me at GEMTECH.

 

[ACP230]

Six pounds is a light, extremely handy, rifle in .308.

Seven is about medium weight, although if the balance is good seven pounds isn't too much for a hunting rifle that would be carried all day.
I have a nine and a half, or 10 pound Ruger 77VT and, although I have hunted deer with it, it's better as a rifle to shoot from a rest.

Light barrels can be very accurate. I have a Ruger M77 in .250 Savage with a light 20 inch barrel. It will put two Remington 100 grain factory loads touching at 100 yards. The third one is usually about an inch away from the first two due to the barrel heating up.

I most often only need one shot when hunting.

 

[Father Knows Best]

Wow, do you realize that you are about to completely change the long range target shooting field? All the competitive target shooters in the world will be trading in those heavy barrels for new lightweight barrels and establishing new world records with pencil-thin barrels. Think of all the steel that will be saved. If you really believe what you said, I would happily invite you to shoot targets at long range to see for yourself the difference that barrel weight makes in regards to accuracy.

Not at all. Hunting rifles and target rifles are used very differently. For one thing, hunting rifles are generally fired once, or perhaps twice, and then not fired again for a long time. Target rifles are fired repeatedly, sometimes as much as a hundred times in a day. A thin barrel can be just as accurate as a heavy barrel on that first shot, which is all that the hunter cares about, because the barrel will always be cool and clean. The target shooter, however, needs a barrel that will shoot to the same point when hot as it does when cool.

In addition, the heavier barrel, being stiffer, is better able to resist things like pressure from a sling, or from resting the forearm on something. If a light barrel rifle is held properly, however, without excessive pressure on the barrel, that disadvantage goes away.

My point is that a heavier barrel is not necessarily more "accurate" than a lighter barrel when you are talking about a first shot. Both the heavy barrel rifle and the light barrel rifle can be just as accurate in placement of the first shot. Over a string of shots, however, the heavy barrel will be more consistent because of its slower rate of heating and cooling, which means less shot-to-shot variance.

Thus, for hunting purposes, a light barrel will often serve just as well as a heavy barrel. Because you will also likely have to carry it long distances, and perhaps up and down steep slopes with lots of other gear and in rough terrain, there is a premium on weight. Thus, the minor advantages of the heavy barrel in a typical hunting context are more than offset by the weight penalty. Note that types of hunting that involve repeated firing, such as varmint hunting, again favor heavier barrels due to their greater consistency is such situations.

 

[Father Knows Best]

ACP320 said:

Light barrels can be very accurate. I have a Ruger M77 in .250 Savage with a light 20 inch barrel. It will put two Remington 100 grain factory loads touching at 100 yards. The third one is usually about an inch away from the first two due to the barrel heating up.

I most often only need one shot when hunting.

That's exactly what I'm talking about. A hunter with a light barreled rifle can sight it in so he knows exactly where it will shoot when clean and cool, and be just as accurate with those first two shots as the guy with the 12 pound heavy barrel target rifle. With successive shots, the heavy barrel gains a huge advantage, but that's irrelevant when talking about a hunting rifle.

 

[USSR]

Wait a minute. First you defined accuracy as being "shot-to-shot consistency", which I have no problem with, and you said it had "little or nothing to do with barrel weight".

Accuracy comes from shot-to-shot consistency, which has little or nothing to do with barrel weight.

Now you're saying that a "heavy barrel will be more consistent ... which means less shot-to-shot variance".

Both the heavy barrel rifle and the light barrel rifle can be just as accurate in placement of the first shot. Over a string of shots, however, the heavy barrel will be more consistent because of its slower rate of heating and cooling, which means less shot-to-shot variance.

You can't have it both ways. And, defining accuracy as a one-shot group? Hell, by that criteria, all rifles are accurate. Accuracy is not shooting one shot from a rifle and hitting something. That is simply having a properly sighted in rifle where POI = POA. Accuracy consists of the shot-to-shot consistency that you referred to earlier. I will grant you that in a hunting situation, weight is a factor. However, the gist of this thread was about someone who was worried about recoil and was thinking about getting a very light rifle. No mention was made as to it's use. I stand by my advice to not get a light rifle if you are fearful of recoil.

Don

 

[Father Knows Best]

If a rifle can be made to shoot to the same point, or extremely close to it, with every shot, then it is accurate. All I'm saying is that if you are shooting multiple shots in a fairly short period of time, then a heavier barrel has an accuracy advantage. If you are shooting only one or two shots, and then cleaning the barrel and letting it cool off, then the heavy barrel has no inherent advantage.

I agree that someone who is highly sensitive to recoil is better served by a heavier gun. They're also better served by lighter bullets, lower velocities, recoil-absorbing operating systems (gas semi-autos, etc.) and muzzle brakes.

But depending on the purpose to which the gun is being put, and how it is used, a lightweight barrel can have just as great of practical accuracy as a heavy barrel.

 

[benEzra]

By comparison, Remington "managed recoil" 12 gauge buckshot consists of 9 pellets of 00 at 1200 fps, for a muzzle energy of only about 1,550 lb-ft. Thus, the .308 produces considerably more energy, which can be expected to result in much greater "felt recoil"

Just a small quibble, but recoil is related to momentum (mass times velocity) rather than energy (mass times velocity squared). The recoil of a 40-grain .223 generating, say, 1300 ft-lb of energy will be considerably less than the recoil of a light 12-gauge load generating the same amount of energy, because the .223 has triple the velocity and thereby generates the same kinetic energy with one ninth the projectile weight. Hence as a first-order approximation, you'd expect the .223 to have about one third the recoil at the same energy level. For the .308 (heavier bullet at lower velocity), you'd expect half the recoil of a shotgun at the same energy level, given identical weight guns, for a first-order guesstimate.

 

[BigG]

I was curious about the European style buttstock after the surprisingly light recoil of a BRNO 602ZKK in .458 Winchester Magnum. This style of buttstock seems to me to reduce felt recoil. Anyone else noticed this?

Yep. The hogback kicks less to me too. And the look has grown on me, too.

 

[Father Knows Best]

benEzra is, of course, correct. I had a brain fart when I pulled the data.

 

[Soap]

Stock fit is important and so is how you hold the rifle:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=15525