What is it about older guns...?

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Steelharp

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I would think, in this modern day of the computer and it's incredible precision, that new guns would just be the absolute best in fit, finish, everything... but it seems the older guns I have... my 1918 Colt/Springfield, my 1955 Star... there's just a smoothness, a class, a feel, that nothing newer I have can come close to.

Why is that, you think?
 
A few years ago my brother summed it up best when he said many people want production and could care less about quality,especially if it means spending a few more dollars.

Unfortunately, in this day and age few people really appreciate craftsmanship or the time it takes to make a fine firearm.

They want instant gratification, and don't want to pay alot of money.
 
I prefer surplus rifles for their history and inexpensive price, but many also have a very nice fit and finish that would rival most anything they make now.

I had a chance to handle a pre-'64 Model 94 rifle and the fit and finish on it are better than that on my 94. It felt nicer too and had a smoother action.

Some of the nicest looking and feeling rifles that I have ever handled are the high-grade custom reproduction flintlock hunting rifles made the old fashioned way.

Now in the age of synthetics and stainless steel, shootin' irons have lost a lot of the visual appeal and allure of the old-time guns.
 
Today's precision machines can turn out the very best in fit and finish, but no one wants to pay the price for using such machines. A lot of buyers today want the very best, made as cheaply as possible then wait for it to go on sale before they buy.
 
It appears that in most modern industries, craftsmanship is an expensive luxury that will only serve to drive your business under unless it is aimed for an elite niche market. So there are less professional craftsman available because you have to eat to survive, and to eat you need someone to hire you for your skill.

I hate hearing stories about old master artisans and craftsmen with a lifetime of experience passing away without anyone around who could afford to pick up the torch and continue the legacy.

Dying arts make me sad.

.
 
Firearms have always been meant to be tools, toys – or weapons. But production economics have changed over the years. As a friend of mine put it, “these new polymer guns are functional, but they aren’t elegant!”

For example, sometime between the end of 1917 and the beginning of 1918, Smith & Wesson made a Military & Police (.38 1905 Hand Ejector) with a six inch barrel. At the time it was intended to be a weapon, and much in demand because the First World War was on. As it happened, I ended up with that revolver recently, and it was as close to being new as it was when it was built. :)

The fit, finish, and construction, based largely on handwork, beat anything the company is making today – although it must be admitted that with the possible exception of MIM lockwork the materials are better now.

But production economics in 1917 was centered around inexpensive, skilled labor that is now long gone. If S&W was to make this same gun today the exact way it was made then the MSRP would probably be between $1500 to $2000, and few people would be interested in buying it.

So in today’s economy we get polymer frames and CNC machined slides and punch-pressed stamped internal parts. These guns may not be fitted up as well, and they are far from elegant, but they work and they are affordable.

Meanwhile those of us that savor the craftsmanship of years gone by can turn to the used market where elegance is still sometimes affordable. The revolver I described above cost me a little less then $300.00 :D :D :D
 
Wouldn't the anti's love it if all guns made today, were made like they were in the "good ol' days", so that very few people could afford them.

Yea. That would be great wouldn't it?
 
smoother action

I agree that there was more craftmanship used in the older guns and also many more hours to make guns that way. One reason that the older guns have smoother actions is that lawyers did not play such a large part in production. Also the triggers have been pulled and the actions cycled so many more times than a new gun. Fire a new gun a few thousand times and it will be smoother.
 
Old Fuff summed it up very well...as usual of course.

He touched on something else I want to bring to light a bit more.

Craftsman whom learned thru apprenticeship.

We do not have many coming up the ranks thru apprenticship anymore. The older Craftsman are dead and dying off everyday.
Firearms are just one industry area that is "losing a valuble resource" - one that is not getting "renewed".

Folks ask for and got what they wanted. Goods and Services for less money. Folks shun the Craftsman, they bitched about prices and wait times. Simple economics, folks have discovered the need for these skills and talents - and hard to come by, since less folks continued to learn and fill shoes. When they do - price and wait times are more expensive ( they say , feel, think).

There is hardly anything some man cannot make cheaper and sell for less - those whom buy based on price alone are this man's prey. - John Ruskin
 
In addition to agreeing with all the posted comments, there seems to be a lack of pride in workmanship these days. It's "get the job done" and move on. Another shining example of self pride is the phrase, "close enough for Government work". Personally, when it comes to a product that I provide, it best be 100%. I won't accept anything less.
 
sm, I'm one of the few people learning from the ground up from experienced machinists how to make things; not from just textbooks or any such other seemingly "good" sources, but from actual experienced teachers and machinists. It's a nice feeling to actually have federal grant money spent in a way that makes sense to me! :)
 
Third_Rail-

Thank YOU!

When you get that Gov't Model of 1911, and 3" K frame revolver done - holler, I'll do a test run. :D

On bluing [ you ARE gonna do blue - right?] The secret is in the prep and polish of metal.

Back in the day, we had electric buffing machines and Foredom Flexshafts...Dremels were not even thought of yet.

I was not allowed to even touch a "powered" machine. I started off sweeping floors, moved up to using a file, then up to using emery, chamois on a stick...

Funny, I "finally" apprenticed along to use a "powered" tool...and I preferred to use a hand file, graver, or polish out with Chamois and compounds....

Learning the hand method sure enabled me to better use a powered tool.

"File what is touching - that stuff not touching don't need filing". I still hear that echo in my brain sometimes.

Hardest thing I ever filed in my life? Second hardest was a Brass cube into a ball. And by golly that sucker had better be smooth, shiny and brite...along with rolling on its own free will when set on the wood floor that had a "slight" decline.

Something about a Mentor grinning when he retrieves that "brass ball" that rolled to the baseboard and says " you can make another one if you want to have a pair".

Stupid me said I was ready to move on. He tossed me a lead ball and said to make a cube. That by far was the hardest thing I ever did with a file. I know all too well the term "leaded up".

And folks wonder why an apprentice started out learing how to use a broom and dustpan. ;)

Best of Luck!!
 
What is it about older guns...?
One thing that I like is the fact that not everyone has one and they are getting harder to come by as each year passes.
 
Steelharp said:
Why is that, you think?
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Steel... while the above posters have correctly mentioned "lack of craftsmanship" as the answer, I think the real answer is concern; i.e., lack of it... Modern firearms may have better steel, tighter tolerances, and other technological advancements, their lack of old-world craftsmanship make these technological advancments practically worthless...And the reason is simply this: lack of concern.

I just bought a $200 brand new cell phone... it didn't work... nobody tested it apparently... just threw it in box and sold it! Lack of concern.

New cars purchased today will rarely make it past their five-year bank loan period of repayment without significant drivetrain, transmission, or electrical failure, either large or small... Not only is this lack of concern troubling, strangely, this failure is in fact 'programmed failure' as it benefits auto market as auto repair has become big business... craftsmanship is discouraged by automakers in preference to planned obsolencence!

I've said on other posts that the most well-built and best crafted item I've ever owned is an old Winchester Model 12 pump... nickel steel, full choke, and easily over half a million rounds digested (I did a rough calculation of over 50 years worth of 12 gauge fodder). The gun has not ever failed.... That kind of quality and concern built into a gun cannot be purchased today, in my opinion, at any price.
 
I think a lot of it is a notalgia for history too. Many people like guns that can take them back to when they were younger. Also many like guns that are old enough to take them back to what they feel must have been a better time than today.

There is also a sense of familiarty at play. Many people like to stay with the weapon they know and in many cases grew up on. For example, when I was in the Army I used the M60. I loved the 60 and absolutly hated the M249 SAW it felt like a substandard attempt to replace a weapon that is simply irreplacable. I feel the same way towards the M240. No matter how great it may be it will never, in my eyes, replace the Hog (M60). Many old timer police officers had the same reaction when their departments went from the revolvers they were accustom to to those "new fangled" automatics.
 
What is it about older guns...?

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I would think, in this modern day of the computer and it's incredible precision, that new guns would just be the absolute best in fit, finish, everything... but it seems the older guns I have... my 1918 Colt/Springfield, my 1955 Star... there's just a smoothness, a class, a feel, that nothing newer I have can come close to.

Why is that, you think?
Click to expand...

Great question.

Unlike everyone else that chimmed in here -- I am an old with the old and in with the new type of guy and the oldest piece in my collection is just a little shy of ten years. I've never cared for older firearms and never see myself owning one; however, there is a big market for them. Guess we are all different in our own little ways, eh?
 
The old ones have stories, too.

How could you hold something with arsenal marks showing it was used in both world wars, for example, something with finger wear on the stock or grip, or an old pre-30's detective sort of revolver with lots of holster wear, and NOT wonder what stories it could tell of what it was used for, what it saw?
 
New cars purchased today will rarely make it past their five-year bank loan period of repayment without significant drivetrain, transmission, or electrical failure, either large or small... Not only is this lack of concern troubling, strangely, this failure is in fact 'programmed failure' as it benefits auto market as auto repair has become big business... craftsmanship is discouraged by automakers in preference to planned obsolencence!
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New AMERICAN cars. (If you count made-in-Mexico Fords as American) That's why it was just announced that GM's market share is down to 25%.

Ever see any of those old Honda Accords, the wedge shapes with the long hood and popup headlights still rolling around? I see them everywhere. Something to think about...those were all made in 1986-1990. The youngest one is 16 years old. The oldest is 20. If you see any American 80's passenger cars still rolling around, they're generally rusted piles of junk trailing oil smoke.

I have a 2000 Accord, myself, built in Ohio by American workers. Almost 100,000 miles. And in five years, it's had...oil changes. That's it. It also still looks like it just left the showroom, inside and out. None of that sun-fading-and-brittling plastic that Ford and GM seem addicted to.

Quality exists. You just have to choose the right brands, and people need to stop being satisfied with "good enough".
 
Just so everyone remembers, there were some awfully bad guns made back in the good old days. Spanish copies of Colt and Smith revolvers, cheap Belgium side by sides, and top break revolvers made by some American companies come to mind.

Many of them are wall hangers now. Some old barrels from that class of gun are serving better as tomato stakes than they ever did as gun parts.

Basic, affordable, modern guns are made better and use better steel than the run of the mill oldsters. There is something about a Model 12 from 1935, or a 1911 from 1918, or an old Smith revolver though.

Those were expensive guns in their time and made well.
 
From Manedwolf:
The old ones have stories, too.

How could you hold something with arsenal marks showing it was used in both world wars, for example, something with finger wear on the stock or grip, or an old pre-30's detective sort of revolver with lots of holster wear, and NOT wonder what stories it could tell of what it was used for, what it saw?
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Yeah, thats what what I think everytime I look at a milsurp. An M-1 manufactured during WWII, a well worn 1911. Did it cross sand at Normandy, Guadalcanal? Did they feel the coldness of the Korean winter.
While I also like the cheaper pricing on many of the milsurps, it's really the history that it carries with it that appeals to me. The craftsmanship of some of these rifles are quite impressive though, the Mauser's (K98, K31 Swiss come to mind) are a fine example of this.
 
The old ones have stories, too.

How could you hold something with arsenal marks showing it was used in both world wars, for example, something with finger wear on the stock or grip, or an old pre-30's detective sort of revolver with lots of holster wear, and NOT wonder what stories it could tell of what it was used for, what it saw?
Click to expand...

Call me evil :evil: but I like the idea that my Mosin Nagant potentially has the blood of freedom hating anti-semetic Nazi socialists on it's proverbial hands. :evil:
 
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