What is the safest reaction to armed road rage?

[Snejdarek]

Prague, and Czech Republic in general, is a safe country to the point that most people don't bother getting the paperwork needed for being able to buy and carry a firearm, even though it is all shall issue (incl. CCW). However, **** happens sometimes, as it does anywhere in the world.

Today, there was an incident on a place that I walk by quite frequently. It seems that some Russian in a car was annoyed by someone on a pedestrian crossing to the point that he brandished a gun and pointed it at that person. Surely enough, a couple of minutes both Russians from the car were handcuffed on the ground, and most probably will be on a plane to Moscow sooner than they could imagine when they were brushing teeth in the morning.

As it turned out, it was just a gas pistol they had (gun licenses for foreigners from non-EU/NATO countries are may issue and unlikely to be given, having illegal gun means prison time and goodbye to EU visa forever, so even if they are member of some mafia, they are unlikely to carry real firearms casually and resort to gas pistols to preserve macho status).

From legal point of view, defensive gun use would be legitimate (you cannot know whether he is packing .45 or gases), however, what is the safest reaction to a person in a car brandishing firearm? Is it better to hope for the best and do nothing (especially in a country where drivebys are unheard of), or try to get out of the cross hair and shoot the perp?

 

[Averageman]

Avoidance; get as far away as fast as you can.
Get plate numbers and a description write it down and call it in.

 

[lemaymiami]

Stand down, clear the area, escape and evade if necessary... in short survive!

Anyone willing to wave a gun (or anything that looks like a gun) is expecting to intimidate others. Let him (or her) win by backing down and leaving the area -even if you're armed and well capable of defending yourself. John Wayne isn't with us anymore and neither will you be if you insist on standing up to someone doing this kind of stuff.

All of that said... if that individual actually initiates an attack then retaliate with all your ability (and with no warning whatsoever....).

 

[Fred Fuller]

We generally don't 'do' road rage threads from the standpoint of drivers. From the viewpoint of uninvolved pedestrians however, it's different. ADEE (avoid, de-escalate/disengage, escape, evade) is pretty much the school solution here in ST&T, and would likely apply pretty broadly in this sort of scenario as well. The driver/shooter is mobility limited, while a pedestrian can probably find cover fairly quickly by moving to the rear of the involved vehicle and then improve on the cover/distance as the situation permits, while notifying the authorities.

 

[Deaf Smith]

What is the safest reaction to armed road rage?

Depends.

If you are in a M1A1 Abrams you can just ignore it.

If in a Yogo and they have a big SUV and guns, might want to find some tight urban traffic to zig-zag through.

It all depends on how aggressive the road rage is, the terrain, and just what your capabilities .vs. theirs is.

Deaf

 

[coloradokevin]

Like so many of these hypotheticals, it's really too hard to give any sort of scripted, one-size-fits-all answer to such a question. I'd provide more general guidance for most threatening situations:

1) Avoid getting in the situation if at all possible
2) Attempt to de-escalate the situation if you are involved in one
3) Attempt to evade the threat if options #1 & 2 fail you
4) Fight if you have no other option available


I once had a road rage incident happen to me around here, while I was on the way to the local sporting goods store, ironically enough. The guy almost hit me in traffic as he made a completely illegal merge across a gore area on an on ramp. I honked my horn, he pulled in behind me, and started getting all kinds of worked up. I was exiting the highway at the next exit, and he followed me off of the exit and into the parking lot of the store I was going to visit. I parked in a normal parking place, and observed as he parked up a row or two from me. He got out of his vehicle "puffing up" a bit, and started my direction, somewhat indirectly, almost as if he was sizing me up. He was definitely giving me the stare-down, and was clearly there to see me.

I was obviously guarded about this situation. This guy was probably about 6'2" tall, and 220lbs. I'm not a monstrous hulking human being. I stand 5'10", and weigh 185lbs. I'm a full-time career police officer, I'm very fit and capable, and I don't think I generally give people the impression that I'm passive or easily victimized (I'm not). I was carrying a Glock 17 concealed at the time, and was cognizant of the fact that this guy was looking for a fight. So, lets recap where we're at, so far:

1) Avoidance: Didn't happen… he got mad when I honked to make him aware that we were about to collide. He then followed me to my destination.

Well, I figured I had a few options at this point, but I took a more direct approach than most people might. I walked toward the guy in a non-threatening manner, but without hesitation or fearfulness, and greeted him before we were within "fighting distance".

I said something along the lines of: "Hey, I'm not sure what happened back there, but I'm not looking to make this into an issue here". He was a bit caught off guard by this approach, and responded by saying something like: "you wouldn't let me merge". I now responded with something along the lines of: "Traffic is pretty heavy there, and I'm not sure exactly how you saw that, but I think we can both agree that this isn't worth getting all bent out of shape about. I've got some shopping to do here, and I figure you probably do too, but I thought I should at least say hello since you seemed pretty bothered there."

He had calmed down at this point, I wished him well, he wished me well, and I went on about my business. I noticed as I walked toward the store that he got back into his vehicle and drove off… clearly he wasn't there to shop when he first pulled in the lot, which is what I figured all along.

So,

Option #2: Deescalation: It worked in this instance, and avoided a more dangerous situation. Sure, I could have played the "I'm right and you're wrong so lets scream at each other" game.

That might have ended at that level, or it might have escalated into a physical fight. In a physical fight I like my chances against most people, but it's stupid to ever let a situation get to that level if it isn't necessary. Plus, as the old saying goes: "no matter how tough you think you are, there's probably someone within a 10 mile drive of here who can mop the floor with you." Moreover, a physical altercation can also escalate to a deadly force encounter, and that's even less desirable. I could tell by his clothing and movements that he was almost certainly unarmed, and I was most certainly well armed. I definitely had the upper hand if it came to a fight like that, but why would I be immature enough to let it?

This was a situation where I'm certain I could have talked my way into a fight if I was looking for one. Maturity and common sense dictates that avoiding such a situation is the more desirable and intelligent outcome. In looking back on that situation it might have been more intelligent to just keep driving when the guy followed me in there. But, like most humans, I have my limitations: I needed something at the store, I didn't have time to waste that day, and I didn't feel like driving around while this guy followed me.

It ended well in that case, but gun-related strategies were the last option I'd have considered, presuming that other options failed.

 

[HankB]

. . . Maturity and common sense dictates that avoiding such a situation is the more desirable and intelligent outcome . . .

How right you are.

On the rare occasions when some road-rage idiot takes exception to my driving, I shrug, smile, wave, and let the miserable <expletive> think I'm apologizing for whatever he thinks I did; if things go from bad to worse, it will be because ALL escalation will come from him. So far, it's worked; he drives off thinking he's Alpha Male King of the Road . . . and I don't have to shoot anyone. Good outcome in my book.

And if there's anything to the concept of karma, eventually he'll run into someone just as hot-headed as he is . . . and he probably won't enjoy where his behavior takes him.

 

[Sav .250]

International law out of my pay grade. You can always shoot back if the occasion ever
arises.

I`m guessing ,if you did, you`d be in for a smack down by the local police. Maybe
even 2 years in the local gulag!

Better yet, ask what the guys do in Chicago...............

 

[theblakester]

I'm getting some good advice from this thread. I've been in 2 situations of road rage. Once in highschool where a guy claimed I cut him off. He followed me to a red light at a busy intersection, Got out of his truck and ran up to my window cussing and yelling up a storm with his head literally in my truck window which was down. And he was a big, in shape man (maybe steroid road rage). I was so caught off guard and scared speechless (fortunately he just wanted to scare me). I got pepper spray shortly after that and to this day wish I had it then. I got his plates and called the police and while I was waiting for the police to meet me at a gas station, a lady who witnessed the scene filled me another mile or two down the road to the gas station and stopped to ask me if I was ok and had also called 911.
The other situation happened more recently and I had my pistol concealed on my person (legal chl). It involved the guy behind me tailing me aggressively and zipped past me, almost sideswiping me or running me off the road bc the lane he used to pass me was ending and merging into my lane. Coincidentally we were both going to the nearby Academy sports store. Looking back, it woulda been smarter for me to not have stopped at that academy, just in case he was a lunatic. When I parked he had already gotten out of his truck and was looking at me, probably thinking that I followed him there to fight. I could tell he felt a lot tougher driving than when we both stopped at the academy. I don't recall the exact conversation, but I quickly let him know that I didn't want to fight or escalate the situation and he didn't either and after briefly exchanging words trying to explain ourselves I told him there were no worries and to have a nice day. The only reason we actually exchanged words was bc we were both going into the same store and after he almost ran me off the road he saw me behind him for the last few blocks cutting through a neighborhood to get into the back of the parking lot. I was with my gf and he was dressed in scrubs, probably just off work.

 

[WestKentucky]

Call 911 on speakerphone and follow their instructions...all the while looking for an opportunity to escape the situation by turning off quickly or pulling in next to a cop.

 

[lemaymiami]

Don't think 911 will do over in Europe.... anywhere there's Russians -good luck...

 

[WestKentucky]

I missed the locale...scratch that 911 call and make the call to your Russian buddies.

 

[Snejdarek]

"Russian" and "buddies" are words that don't really go together, especially since the SHTF in Ukraine... not to mention the recent rhetoric and actions concerning Estonia.

The way Russians stand behind their dear leader makes one feel like re-living 1938 all over again.

 

[Pilot]

Drive away when the get out of the car, and begin to approach.

 

[Sheepdog1968]

Dial 911 on my cell and drive to the nearest police station is my general plan. Besides firearms, I think pepper spray is a great thing. I've known an individual who had something develop and used pepper spray from inside the vehicle through a cracked window to solve the situation. I know of at least two other incidents with colleagues where it would have solved the problem.

I don't know about others but my threshold to use pepper spray is a whole lot lower than a firearm. A few aggressive panhandlers almost got a face full but giving a dollar bill cost less than buying a new pepper spray and was less hassle. Since then I have moved out of a big city to a small town which reduces some issues but not all go them.

 

[Devonai]

Drive to Ratiskovice, book a room at the penzion, and have some locally-brewed pivo at the pub across the street. If the bad guys are still following you by then, maybe they'll be thirsty.

 

[Drail]

Run away.

 

[Potatohead]

Is "gas" gun the same as our air/bb/pellet guns?

 

[aarondhgraham]

I stopped, exited my car, got behind it, and called 911.

I stopped, exited my car, got behind it, and called 911.

It was on a 4-lane 65mph state highway,,,
The guy was tailgating me real close.

Then he would swerve quickly, pass me, and slam his brakes,,,
He was in a 3/4 ton work truck,,,
I was in a Toyota Celica.

When he passed me again I quickly pulled over,,,
I stopped, exited my car, got behind it, and called 911.

He pulled onto the shoulder about 100-150 yards ahead.

I never pulled my gun out,,,
But I had the zipper of my briefcase open.

I told the dispatcher that I had a concealed handgun,,,
I also told him that I had not drawn it yet,,,
And wouldn't unless I was attacked.

Oklahoma Highway Patrol was there in just a few minutes,,,
One cruiser went to the truck and the other to me.

At first the trooper chewed me out for pulling over,,,
He said that I should have maintained speed and kept driving.

I told him that I felt that I was under active assault with the short-stop actions,,,
Pulling over might seem like a foolish thing to do at first thought,,,
But I felt it was better to avoid being run off the road.

I stated to him that whatever was going to happen,,,
I didn't want it to happen in a moving vehicle going 65 mph.

I filled out a report on the spot,,,
I have no idea what eventually happened to the guy,,,
But when I drove away they had him in cuffs and were stuffing him in the cruiser.

I've thought abut it a lot since then,,,
I still think that stopping my vehicle was the correct thing to do.

Many folk have told me they wouldn't have exited the car,,,
But I wasn't about to let myself be trapped in it.

I would do the same again.

Aarond

.

 

[Snejdarek]

Is "gas" gun the same as our air/bb/pellet guns?

No, it fires tear gas cartridges. It may be lethal if fired from close distance directly against a temple though. But more importantly it looks like a real deal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_pistol

 

[Warp]

Am I mistaken, or is posting a a censored word, which is then changed to a series of asterisks (as in the OP) against THR posting rules?

 

[1911 guy]

If you can keep the car moving, avoid or flee the situation. Worst case when the car is moving, use it as a weapon to allow you to then evade. If the car won't go, get out of it. sitting inside a stalled or trapped car is giving away all mobility.

 

[Warp]

If you can keep the car moving, avoid or flee the situation. Worst case when the car is moving, use it as a weapon to allow you to then evade. If the car won't go, get out of it. sitting inside a stalled or trapped car is giving away all mobility.

\
What if your wife and children are in the car?

 

[1911 guy]

If it's not a good idea for you to remain in the vehicle, why would you leave them there? If it's not alright for you to sit there and be a target, why would you have them sit there and be targets? If you're better off mobile, why should they not also be mobile? Yes, this may involve compromised mobility due to kids and such, but that is far better than zero mobility.

Sometimes I think people are looking for pat answers when the real answer is a principle to be applied as the situation dictates.

 

[Warp]

If it's not a good idea for you to remain in the vehicle, why would you leave them there? If it's not alright for you to sit there and be a target, why would you have them sit there and be targets?

Taking a baby or toddler out of their car seat and carrying them under such circumstances doesn't seem particularly safe, either.

I can only imagine that, as the (most likely) driver of my vehicle, a road rage incident would be directly more at me than anybody else. I think it would be a pretty stupid plan, personally, to decide to carry my kid in that scenario.

But I never said any of that, I asked a question, to which you are replying with questions.

If you're better off mobile, why should they not also be mobile?

I'll tell my 2 year old that she is too slow and immobile. I'm sure that will be productive.

This isn't getting anywhere, though. What if your wife and young child are in the car with you? A big part of what we do is try to game-plan scenarios so we aren't starting from square 1 if it ever happens. So, road rage with wife and young child in the vehicle...do you bail? If you have time to get out, go tot he back, get htem out of the car seat, and safely carry them away...were you really not safe just staying in the car? Do you bail, tell wife to stay (with her own gun), and put a little distance between you simply so that if someone shoots at you, the wife/kid(s) aren't in the crossfire (or the backstop)?