What makes a "Rifleman"?
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xsquidgator
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If you're going to capitalize it, Rifleman vs rifleman, then start with some of the Rifleman definitions that are out there. The ones that come to my mind are the ones by Fred and the Revolutionary War Veterans Association (RWVA) who are the people who conduct Appleseed shooting events across the country. Similarly, the guy who has authored books such as "Boston's Gun Bible" under the pen name "Boston T. Party" takes a similar view and definition.
The basic idea is that being a Rifleman requires being equipped, trained, and capable of shooting at a decently high level of skill, as opposed to simply being equipped with a rifle. If you can earn the Appleseed "Rifleman" patch, you're probably well on the way towards being a Rifleman. I'd use that as a yardstick definition. That's useful because it involves attaining a specific score on a specific course of fire that exercises many of the rifle skill fundamentals.
The basic idea is that being a Rifleman requires being equipped, trained, and capable of shooting at a decently high level of skill, as opposed to simply being equipped with a rifle. If you can earn the Appleseed "Rifleman" patch, you're probably well on the way towards being a Rifleman. I'd use that as a yardstick definition. That's useful because it involves attaining a specific score on a specific course of fire that exercises many of the rifle skill fundamentals.
Claude Clay
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what is the difference between a user and an operator of x or y?
most can be taught to use a car. but few become an operator
user -- in average usage is border competent; minor things go unnoticed leading to things breaking and they will have avoidable 'events' every 5-7 years.
operator -- understands how and why the machines various components come together such that they know and can operate it at its limits...and than some. they know how to take care, trouble shoot and most often effect repairs. their machines talk to them and they listen.
most can be taught to use a car. but few become an operator
user -- in average usage is border competent; minor things go unnoticed leading to things breaking and they will have avoidable 'events' every 5-7 years.
operator -- understands how and why the machines various components come together such that they know and can operate it at its limits...and than some. they know how to take care, trouble shoot and most often effect repairs. their machines talk to them and they listen.
627PCFan
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Savage had a post about this on their facebook page a week or 2 ago. Hunter Vs Rifleman, or shooter vs hunter, something of the sort. Alot of negative reactions to that question.
627PCFan
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Question of the day: To you, what is the difference between a true "Rifleman" (or woman) and just another person who shoots or hunts with a rifle?
Arkansas Paul
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improperlyaged beat me to it. I was gonna say a Winchester with a huge loop lever.
40-82
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What makes a rifleman? The Appalachian Mountains, the home of the grey squirrel and the groundhog. I'm not saying that there aren't riflemen in other parts of the world, but deep down the similarities between those men and us are greater than the differences.
blarby
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Thats a fantastic comparison, right there. I couldn't agree more.
medalguy
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What is a rifleman? Well just owning a rifle does not make one a rifleman. A true rifleman is someone who is very capable of getting the best out of his (or her) rifle, being highly proficient with it. That means knowing how it functions, being able to completely disassemble and repair it, and hit whatever he is aiming at, within reason.
X-Rap
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I would add that he can do it with multiple pieces of equipment.
He should be able to take a gun from a rack, test it, diagnose its problems if any, mount/adjust sights, load performance ammo and make reliable hits at ranges to 500 yds.
There is much said about the man who has but one gun and his box of shells lasts a decade but to me he is a good hunter or has a very productive plot to hunt but he is probably not a Rifleman.
afponiky
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Ok, I'll get flamed here, but what about the standing of a rifleman with Appleseed?
Isn't that somewhat more of what the OP was talking about?
Flame away,,,, this isn't Hollywood!
AF
Isn't that somewhat more of what the OP was talking about?
Flame away,,,, this isn't Hollywood!
AF
6 posts are gone because they were off topic and distracting. Stick to the topic at hand as it refers to the real world. Hollywood has no bearing on THR.
Officers'Wife
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That would be my Dad...
A rifleman is the one that knows his weapon and admits that knowing what it can't do is more important than what it can do. A rifleman's weapon will show scars on the stock and the bluing will be worn in place but the action is clean and oiled. And most important, a rifleman tries to live within a code of right and wrong. For the rifleman knows that the world is a good place and we are part of it.
medalguy
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Yeah, I like that definition.
410.bird.shot
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Quite a philosophical question you've posed here.
To me, a rifleman is one who practices his craft and passes it on to friends and the next generation. To be a rifleman is to be one who respects and maintains his equipment, while also recognizing limitations in himself and the rifle. Sometimes, being a good rifleman requires one to put the safety on without having pulled the trigger. I was taught the basics of rifle shooting by my grandfather, who was a Marine and passed through San Diego in '43. During granddady's qualification, the fellow next to him needed a couple bulls for some reason, so granddaddy shot two bulls for the neighbor, took two complete misses on his own target and still qualified expert. He's always laughed when telling that story, but the real lesson was one of humility when a friend is in need. I seem to recall him saying he got a few extra dollars for being an expert, and that meant a lot when his monthly pay was only $50 to start.
To me, a rifleman is one who practices his craft and passes it on to friends and the next generation. To be a rifleman is to be one who respects and maintains his equipment, while also recognizing limitations in himself and the rifle. Sometimes, being a good rifleman requires one to put the safety on without having pulled the trigger. I was taught the basics of rifle shooting by my grandfather, who was a Marine and passed through San Diego in '43. During granddady's qualification, the fellow next to him needed a couple bulls for some reason, so granddaddy shot two bulls for the neighbor, took two complete misses on his own target and still qualified expert. He's always laughed when telling that story, but the real lesson was one of humility when a friend is in need. I seem to recall him saying he got a few extra dollars for being an expert, and that meant a lot when his monthly pay was only $50 to start.
mljdeckard
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We can try to apply a bunch of arbitrary standards to it, but I think it's a bad idea. I don't want to start separating myself from the guys with or without stars on their bellies. We have a lot of new guys, and a lot of the standards for competency are imaginary to begin with.
What I am loving most about watching "Top Shot" is seeing guys who are just hobbyists either win or come very close to winning. I think the military and police guys come in with a lot of institutionalized standards that may or may not mean anything, they have met that standard and been told they are experts, or failed to meet it and believed they were incompetent, and these kids who come in without these notions run rings around them, I think it's hilarious.
What I am loving most about watching "Top Shot" is seeing guys who are just hobbyists either win or come very close to winning. I think the military and police guys come in with a lot of institutionalized standards that may or may not mean anything, they have met that standard and been told they are experts, or failed to meet it and believed they were incompetent, and these kids who come in without these notions run rings around them, I think it's hilarious.
peacemaker45
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Well, to me, rifle shooting comes in three basic varieties.
Carbine: this is predominantly close, fast shooting. Little, if any, attention is paid to windage or elevation. Instead, the shooter gets a sight picture, and pulls the trigger. Stances tend to emphasize mobility and flexibility over stability.
General Rifle: this is shooting beyond the range of off hand point and shoot techniques. It requires knowledge of field positions, attention to wind, distance and other factors. A competent rifleman can still get hits, well beyond the point blank range of his piece.
Precision Rifle: this is the realm of heavy barrels, high magnification, bipods and lasers. Where the corrections needed to hit targets go beyond thumb rules and mental math, and begin to require technological aids, trigonometrical tables, and such to generate a shooting solution.
At least that's my take on it.
Carbine: this is predominantly close, fast shooting. Little, if any, attention is paid to windage or elevation. Instead, the shooter gets a sight picture, and pulls the trigger. Stances tend to emphasize mobility and flexibility over stability.
General Rifle: this is shooting beyond the range of off hand point and shoot techniques. It requires knowledge of field positions, attention to wind, distance and other factors. A competent rifleman can still get hits, well beyond the point blank range of his piece.
Precision Rifle: this is the realm of heavy barrels, high magnification, bipods and lasers. Where the corrections needed to hit targets go beyond thumb rules and mental math, and begin to require technological aids, trigonometrical tables, and such to generate a shooting solution.
At least that's my take on it.
Here's another thread (from 08) asking the same question, might have some replies of interest:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=402987&page=3
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=402987&page=3
As an NRA Certified Rifle Instructor and organizer of rifle matches, I'll jump on the soapbox for a moment. There is a reason the basic Rifle courses are 14 hours, while the basic pistol courses are only 8 hours!
My definition of a Rifleman is someone who can:
I can not begin to count the number of individuals I know who get their rifle of choice out for "target practice", hit the firing range a couple times a year, then proceed to always shoot at the same distance from the same position. They hit respectable groups at this distance and decide "man, I'm GOOD!"
No, no you aren't.
I used to be like them. And I found out, eventually, no, I'm not really that good. Rifle marksmanship is a serious study, something that takes a long time to master - and (in my humble opinion) is much harder than learning handguns in many aspects. The ballistics are harder, the positions are more varied, the variables are greater.
Once I came to the realization that "I do not know everything", it allowed me to thereby reach the conclusion that "it's not too late to learn how to do this properly."
I am by no means a "Master Rifleman", but I have learned what steps I need to take to become one. And, if my time on Earth is long enough, and I'm fortunate enough, hopefully I'll attain a satisfactory level of mastery sometime before I expire, or my body physically fails me to the point I cannot attain my goal.
I started a Highpower rifle program at our club this year, and next month I kick off our longer range precision event. This way, I'm not alone on my journey.
[Stepping off of the soapbox as an NRA instructor]
Now, my personal opinion follows;
America owns a lot of firearms, we all know this. I mean, we own a LOT of firearms. But the average skill level of firearms owners is shockingly low. We may "have a rifle behind every blade of grass", but the animal behind the trigger is arrogant, unskilled, and minimally trained (if any). Most people practice bad habits, get stuck in a routine, and never move beyond the basics of "load rifle, shoot small groups from fixed position, go home." (Reloaders are especially prone to falling in this trap, in the quest for the penultimate-accuracy-load, as we spend too much time testing our ammo and not enough time practicing with it).
My advice, forget the "shoot small group" mentality and learn to USE the thing. Yes, your rifle might be able to hit sub MOA from the bench, with your ammo, in controlled conditions. Great. That doesn't impress me. Not one bit.
Go out on a windy day, take a 10 shot group at 200 yards, kneeling, without a sling or other support.
Now, how's your group?
My definition of a Rifleman is someone who can:
- Understand, maintain, and safely operate a rifle of any basic action type (bolt, lever, semi, etc)
- Understands and has incorporated the principals of shooting in to their mindset (breath control, hold control, trigger control, aiming, and follow-through)
- Properly assume and engage targets accurately from all 5 basic shooting positions (standing, kneeling, sitting, prone, bench/supported), at varying ranges.
I can not begin to count the number of individuals I know who get their rifle of choice out for "target practice", hit the firing range a couple times a year, then proceed to always shoot at the same distance from the same position. They hit respectable groups at this distance and decide "man, I'm GOOD!"
No, no you aren't.
I used to be like them. And I found out, eventually, no, I'm not really that good. Rifle marksmanship is a serious study, something that takes a long time to master - and (in my humble opinion) is much harder than learning handguns in many aspects. The ballistics are harder, the positions are more varied, the variables are greater.
Once I came to the realization that "I do not know everything", it allowed me to thereby reach the conclusion that "it's not too late to learn how to do this properly."
I am by no means a "Master Rifleman", but I have learned what steps I need to take to become one. And, if my time on Earth is long enough, and I'm fortunate enough, hopefully I'll attain a satisfactory level of mastery sometime before I expire, or my body physically fails me to the point I cannot attain my goal.
I started a Highpower rifle program at our club this year, and next month I kick off our longer range precision event. This way, I'm not alone on my journey.
[Stepping off of the soapbox as an NRA instructor]
Now, my personal opinion follows;
America owns a lot of firearms, we all know this. I mean, we own a LOT of firearms. But the average skill level of firearms owners is shockingly low. We may "have a rifle behind every blade of grass", but the animal behind the trigger is arrogant, unskilled, and minimally trained (if any). Most people practice bad habits, get stuck in a routine, and never move beyond the basics of "load rifle, shoot small groups from fixed position, go home." (Reloaders are especially prone to falling in this trap, in the quest for the penultimate-accuracy-load, as we spend too much time testing our ammo and not enough time practicing with it).
My advice, forget the "shoot small group" mentality and learn to USE the thing. Yes, your rifle might be able to hit sub MOA from the bench, with your ammo, in controlled conditions. Great. That doesn't impress me. Not one bit.
Go out on a windy day, take a 10 shot group at 200 yards, kneeling, without a sling or other support.
Now, how's your group?
45_auto
Member
Trent said:
^^^^ One of the most accurate statements ever posted here.
It's pretty simple IMO. It's someone who can hit what he shoots at whether it's moving or sitting still. Those shots at moving targets are much harder BTW. And you should be able to do it without a rest. Lots of folks can shoot tight groups with a rest and there is a lot of fun in that. But to me being able to shoot includes being able to hunt moving targets and / or defend yourself against moving targets. Shooting tight groups at 500 yards is great and it is proof you can shoot. But a real rifleman shoots in the real world too. When you can shoot small birds flying through the air or throw a pop can up yourself and shoot it 6 times before it hits the ground then you're a true rifleman in my book. And I know those things can be done. I've seen it done and I've done it. If you can hit a bat flying especially then you are a shooter. They are the toughest targets I know for a rifle. BTW the trick to hitting a pop can multiple times is to keep knocking it up in the air by shooting it at it's apex every time. I've seen it done as many as 8 times actually but not by me. I've never made it past 6.
You're right about that. It takes a different skill than shooting tight groups at 50 yards with a .22 from a bench rest. But bench rest shooting is another skill. So is shooting moving objects and not just a swinging target either. I'm talking about a running squirrel or a rabbit or a flying bird or a bat. Then there's doves, quail, grouse, etc. which are generally done with shotguns but that is definitely a skill we could all learn if we wanted. It may put food on your table some day.
There are many aspects to shooting and a real shooter tries to learn most of them. It takes a long time to get some of them down but some come pretty easy. Actually shooting moving objects can come easily if you're taught well from the start. Growing up around shooters helps a lot. So does being willing to learn from everyone even people others might think aren't great shooters. There's always something else to learn. No man knows it all.
You're right about that. It takes a different skill than shooting tight groups at 50 yards with a .22 from a bench rest. But bench rest shooting is another skill. So is shooting moving objects and not just a swinging target either. I'm talking about a running squirrel or a rabbit or a flying bird or a bat. Then there's doves, quail, grouse, etc. which are generally done with shotguns but that is definitely a skill we could all learn if we wanted. It may put food on your table some day.
There are many aspects to shooting and a real shooter tries to learn most of them. It takes a long time to get some of them down but some come pretty easy. Actually shooting moving objects can come easily if you're taught well from the start. Growing up around shooters helps a lot. So does being willing to learn from everyone even people others might think aren't great shooters. There's always something else to learn. No man knows it all.
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See post 22. Trent makes a lot of sense. Well done, Trent.
And I seem to recall liking what Jeff Cooper had to say. I can't find his exact words right now, but I think a good paraphrase is:
When I took the General Rifle (270) at Gunsite, that was roughly the focus of the class.
And I seem to recall liking what Jeff Cooper had to say. I can't find his exact words right now, but I think a good paraphrase is:
When I took the General Rifle (270) at Gunsite, that was roughly the focus of the class.
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