What makes a "Rifleman"?

[X-Rap]

I also remember Cooper speaking with pride about his daughters shooting to the effect that if she could see it she could hit it. We all know that there are limitations to that but within reason it's true.
Beyond that I must bow and defer all further claims and definitions to CeeZee. He is describing things I've never seen before and I see that true Riflemen must be very few and far between.

 

[Trent]

See post 22. Trent makes a lot of sense. Well done, Trent.

I have my moments. They're rare.

I'd like to add one more item to my soapbox preaching above; there is no substitute for good training.

You can go out to practice by yourself 1,000 times and while you may improve, you will only improve a certain amount, and then stop improving.

Why? Chances are very, very high that you're practicing and ingraining bad habits that only others can see / fix, looking on from outside.

I've gone through 60 hours of various training classes this year, plan on doing another 20, then calling it done for the year. Next year, I want to get at least another 80 hours of training in.

Not practice - training, there is a difference! One you do on your own. The other you do under the supervision of another instructor.

When I took the General Rifle (270) at Gunsite, that was roughly the focus of the class.

I'd love to go train at Gunsite. It's on my list, if work ever calms down to the point I can travel. I actually have a need to do it now, to get Advanced Pistol instructor credentials with NRA - they are requiring instructors take advanced training at Gunsite, Thunder Ranch, etc before they'll qualify the instructor to teach NRA Defensive Pistol.

 

[AKElroy]

When I think "rifleman", Jack O'Connor is the first name that pops into my head. His advocacy for the model 70 and the .270 Winchester are legendary, and his writing was riveting for me as a kid as my dad frequently referred to it as sparking his passion. I don't know what kind of shot he was, but he sure got a lot of folks excited about rifles, and the rifleman's rifle.

 

[Bobson]

what is the difference between a user and an operator of x or y?

most can be taught to use a car. but few become an operator
user -- in average usage is border competent; minor things go unnoticed leading to things breaking and they will have avoidable 'events' every 5-7 years.
operator -- understands how and why the machines various components come together such that they know and can operate it at its limits...and than some. they know how to take care, trouble shoot and most often effect repairs. their machines talk to them and they listen.

Excellent perspective. I agree completely, though I wouldn't have thought to approach it this way.

When I hear the word "Rifleman," the first thing I think of is the quote, "Every Marine is a Rifleman." I know that not every Marine is a sharpshooter (by Marine standards), therefore I'm forced to conclude that every Marine is at least an user. I assume that isn't the intended message.

 

[45_auto]

When you can shoot small birds flying through the air or throw a pop can up yourself and shoot it 6 times before it hits the ground then you're a true rifleman in my book.

Your book is different than mine. I equate what you're describing as more of close-range trick shots as opposed to rifleman skills. How far away can you consistently hit a bird flying through the air?

A good test of your flying bird "qualification" would be how many skeet on a skeet range can you break with a rifle. I would think that skeet would be simpler than real small birds darting around. I can consistently do low 20's out of 25 with a shotgun, with a rare perfect round of 25. Based on what I've seen with a shotgun, my guess is that the vast majority of riflemen would be lucky to get one or two with a rifle.

A pop can I throw up myself and shoot with a .22 half a dozen times? It's what, 4 or 5 yards at the most up high in front of me? Sounds easily doable, but I don't have anywhere close I can shoot a rifle up in the air to find out.

Either way, neither one is a skill that I would imagine would be applicable to most riflemen.

 

[Trent]

A pop can I throw up myself and shoot with a .22 half a dozen times? It's what, 4 or 5 yards at the most up high in front of me? Sounds easily doable, but I don't have anywhere close I can shoot a rifle up in the air to find out.

Yeah I don't advise doing this. A 22 goes a long way, but a 223 or 308 fired in the air.. that goes a REAL long way.

Also, trick shooting doesn't make a person a Rifleman. At best, it makes an entertainer. At worse, it makes an irresponsible fool who's putting other people at danger somewhere "down the horizon".

No, a Rifleman is a whole different thing entirely.

A (civilian) Rifleman is the defender of the homeland, of our way of life, of our families and lands. A Rifleman is the defense of last resort, before we plunge off in to that abyss of chaos and anarchy. Civilian riflemen (from the traditional standings), in my view, comprises the militia. The original scope of the NRA, and of the Civilian Marksmanship Program, was to train Riflemen.

And, that purpose still remains the same to this day. (NRA-ILA is a whole different animal).

Shooting for fun, hunting, engaging in competitions - those are all things Riflemen can do with their skills. I believe, though, if you view the Rifle as an extension of your will, of the community at whole, then it takes on a different perspective entirely.

 

[X-Rap]

I can break air born charcoal brickets after a little warm up and know a guy who can hit coins with anything from a 22lr - 41mag but 6-8 rounds in a pop can is quite a feat IMHO not to mention bats or doves. I'd love to see any of it on film. They are missing their calling as one of the great exhibition shooters.

 

[45_auto]

but 6-8 rounds in a pop can is quite a feat IMHO

It's probably harder than it seems. I'll still have to try it some day.

I've seen lots of people shoot stuff in the air thrown out in front of them (coins, charcoal, cans, etc) with a rifle . A Youtube search finds this guy breaking about 50% (23 out of 50) of the clays thrown directly away from him with a 10/22:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31rgIA-k4wY

Can't find anybody shooting anything similar on a crossing vector. My experience with shots in the field at moving targets at unknown ranges is that they are very seldom moving directly at you or directly away from you like all of the trick shooting videos I see. A little bit of wind screws up the majority of shooters at more than point-blank ranges, a moving target at an unknown range where they have to quickly estimate a lead seems to be pretty much unhittable to most shooters that I've seen.

I would consider the skills to shoot with some crosswind, or to estimate range and calculate lead on a moving target, to be among the essential skills of a rifleman.

 

[X-Rap]

I fully agree with you on the shooting of air born targets other than directly away, that's why the bat and bird shooting seems to be such an extraordinary claim and the story implies that it is doable at will for a skilled shooter. I must say that I am skeptical to say the least.
I guess I will invoke Missouri's motto of "show me".

 

[45_auto]

I must say that I am skeptical to say the least.
I guess I will invoke Missouri's motto of "show me".

I'm with X-Rap!

 

[Baba Louie]

Some excellent replies. Frank Ettin's ethos is much the same as what I was taught. Jeff Cooper wrote (IIRC it's been awhile since I re-read his Cooper Commentaries or any other of his writing) hitting a teacup size target, first shot, any position, unknown distance, in 1.5 seconds or so would constitute a good rifleman.

An ungodly good rifleman I would opine. They are out there.

 

[taliv]

there's 100+ years of history behind the Distinguished Rifleman Badge. As for regular Riflemen, I could get behind appleseed's qualification or the like. but more realistically, I think the term more generally implies a specialization than competency.

for example, if i said policeman, you know there is a wide range of competency, but even the bad ones are still policemen. if a band has a bad guitar player or singer, they're still the guitar player or singer.

and so some organizations or extra-organizational people are considered riflemen, because that's what they prefer or use, regardless of how good they are. the Marines say every Marine is a rifleman. I can tell you a lot of Marines wouldn't pass the appleseed qual, but they're still riflemen. (even if they're really cooks)

 

[Hardtarget]

Most of my shooting skill came from my dad. Some what limited. He is a pretty good shot but not an instructor.

His "mantra" about shooting a rifle was 'the bench teaches us what the rifle can do. Its up to us to prove what we can do with the rifle"

When we were shooting with any group he would say watch every shooter. You'll learn things from each one.

I have learned to shoot a little. I need to learn lots more about longer range shooting.

Mark

 

[falmike]

I like what Fred says.

Google: "Fred's 'Guide to Becoming a Rifleman'"

Mike

 

[Warp]

Some really good responses in here.

I think the Appleseed Rifleman patch is a great start down the path, but is only just the beginning.

I can easily shoot 210+ scores all day long on that AQT, but I feel as though I'm only about, oh, let's call it 20% of the way to where I ought to be.

And I also believe being a Rifleman goes well beyond shooting a rifle.

 

[Black Butte]

"What makes a rifleman?"

Ask Lucas McCain.

 

[Malamute]

Some good comments, and interesting thoughts. I'd suggest that formal training isn't the only choice or path to proficiency, not to denigrate training, for it can make, or help make some very fine shooters/riflemen, but some can become very good shooters/riflemen without a certain number of hours of training or formal skill sets or scoring capabilities. The description of Stewart Edward White by Cooper came to mind when I saw the topic. I found Coopers comment about him from his book "The Art of the Rifle". It was borrowed from someones comments elsewhere.

"I remind you of American adventurer and novelist Stewart Edward White who was considered an extraordinary marksman in the 1920′-30′s. He was tested by E.C. Crossman at a range in California. Crossman was one of, if not the authority on the subject. Crossman discovered at once the White knew practically nothing about the theory of rifle shooting including positions or sling use, but he could keep all his shots in 4 inch ring at a 100 steps under all conditions of light, position, calm, stressed, lying, sitting, standing, slow or fast, his shot always landed within 2″ of his point of aim.

This sort of thing will win no medals in competition, nor will it be extolled by advertisers, but it will do what needs doing and do it every time” and Cooper knighted him as his choice of “Certified Master of the Art”

 

[jack44]

Chuck connors!.

 

[X-Rap]

I still say post #3 nailed it.

 

[Cee Zee]

It never fails. When you try to educate people who think they already know everything they get mad about it and bite you. Trick shots? Film? How far does a person need to shoot a small bird BTW. When I've done it I did it for a reason. I needed to get the birds out of my attic. I shot one and the mate saw what happened and wouldn't land anywhere except right as it was going into my house. So I shot it as it flew away from my house. But I've shot bats, much harder BTW, at 25 yards or so with a .22. If you don't believe it can be done it's your loss. BTW what's wrong with trick shots? There isn't much call for them but they certainly teach you a few things about making shots you do need to make. Still to this day my friends call me to give demonstrations doing what you might call trick shots. Like I said. Being a rifleman is something that involves all aspects of shooting IMO. Not only have I seen lots of people do that kind of shooting but I bet I could teach many of you to do it too. It's not nearly as hard as you seem to think it is. Don't sell yourself short. Just because you haven't doesn't mean you can't.

BTW we grew up saying "if you can see it you can shoot it" all the time. Maybe someone else got it from Cooper but I sure didn't.

When we were shooting with any group he would say watch every shooter. You'll learn things from each one.

There you go. That's the same thing I said. BTW I also said I shot doves and quail with a shotgun, not a rifle for those that seem to think I said otherwise.

 

[Field Tester]

Big Lebowski quote come to anyone else's mind as well?

 

[410.bird.shot]

A small part of me has long wanted to attempt striking aerial targets with a .22 but I have never had access to a tract of uninhabited and secured land that large. I doubt I'd even try it on the open ocean due to the liability concerned. It does seems to border on negligence to shoot a rifle into the air and I wouldn't be caught dead doing that in front of a child or impressionable person if I had access to some magical range. I think something to keep in mind here is pretty simple:

# 1 ALWAYS keep the gun pointed in a safe direction.
. . . .

-- Know your target and what is beyond.
. . . .

It wouldn't be a bad idea to review the link below periodically, I don't care how old or experienced one may be.

http://training.nra.org/nra-gun-safety-rules.aspx

 

[Malamute]

I'm with the Zee regarding "trick" shots. Some seem to feel they are more like magic "tricks" than real shooting, but the name isnt properly descriptive for most of what would be described as such. Yes, some things are easier than they first seem, but by no means as easy as some would have you believe. Most of the decent exhibition or "trick" shots could tape over the hole in a washer, toss it in the air, and shoot through the hole. Those were relatively simple things, tho could be mastered with practice.

I recall reading of a kid in the early 70's that was a fancy shot, while practicing and goofing off, he was ejecting the empties from his 22 pump rifle into the air and shooting them. He thought nothing of it. Much of the fancy shooting I've heard of sounded pretty outrageous at first, but isn't impossible to one motivated enough to pursue that level. Jordan was able to toss 5 asprins in the air, draw his Smith 19 and shoot them. Maybe thats some sort of trick, but I think it's amazing shooting ability. If one cant figure out how such abilities could have any practical application, well, I suppose shooting asprins per se isnt practical, but the ability represented is vastly above what many otherwise very fine shots can do.

I'd guess there's much of the country that doesn't have places that one could shoot in the air without concern, but the west has some places that its possible.

 

[coloradokevin]

I guess my answer may vary depending upon the day you ask me such a question, but here's what's on my mind right now:

A Rifleman, to me, is someone who has achieved competence in the art of the rifle, and continuously seeks to improve their expertise. Merely holding a rifle does not make a rifleman, nor does taking that person and training them to the basic level of competence that is required by any given armed service or police force (at least in my opinion). Rather, a true "Rifleman" is a seeker of perfection, the type of person who goes the extra mile in honing their skills, and stands out above the average shooter when the shots are long and hard to make. They are not the average shooters of rifles, but the people who demonstrate a higher level of competence than the average shooter would likely achieve.

 

[Black Butte]

I needed to get the birds out of my attic. I shot one and the mate saw what happened and wouldn't land anywhere except right as it was going into my house. So I shot it as it flew away from my house.

Blowing them away is the only solution you could come up with?