What Makes M80 Ball Shoot Like Garbage?

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I thought this would be the appropriate forum to post this in, since it’s component related. I bought 100 rounds of it a while back (headstamp reads PS 83.02), just for plinkers. We were shooting medicine bottles filled with flour at 100 yards for fun. I couldn’t hit anything! So I decided to group it. My rifle usually shoots most anything pretty well. 1/2” groups with my hand loads and even steel cased stuff under 2”. I couldn’t get a group under 4” with this stuff!
I’ve grouped it on several occasions, as I now use it to warm up my barrel before shooting good ammo, and it’s always the same.
Is all M80 generally this bad? Is there something inferior about this particular M80? I can’t wrap my head around ammo being this terrible!

No, it is not always that bad, but then, does the military need match ammunition for machine guns, or even service rifles?

@Hummer70 wrote this:

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5424409


The M14 in issue condition is known as the worst performing rifle we ever fielded. I worked product engineering for the Army Small Cal Lab at Picatinny Arsenal and I had engineering responsibility for the M14 until the Chief transferred me to the Dover Devil MG project. While there my board was adjacent to Julio Savioli who was the draftsman for the M14 rifle and his name is on all the drawings for it. Al Cole was engineer in charge of the M14 and he was also a friend. Savy (as we called him) was a wealth of information on the M14 and had all kinds of stories about it as he not only did the drawings, he was in on the field testing.

First off consider the requirement facts from the engineering files from the government weapons production efforts.

1. acceptance accuracy for 1903 Springfield was 3" at 100 yards.
2. acceptance accuracy for M1 Garand was 5" at 100 yards.
3. acceptance accuracy for M14 was 5.5" at 100 yards and was waivered continually as it could not meet that.
4. acceptance accuracy for M16 series is 4.5" at 100 yards.

From SAAMI we have a recommendation of 3" at 100 yards and it is up to the vendor whether he wants to meet this or not.

H&R also made M14s and M1s and the contracts were shut down due to poor QA.

The M14 if rebuilt correctly and very few can do so is capable of acceptable accuracy. For instance the Army MTU rebuild program with rifle fired from machine rest was 10 shots in 4.5" at 300 yards. Some would go to 3" but rarely. A good bolt gun will shoot in 2" at 300 yards.

The TRW weapons were at one time thought to be good but MTU set up some exotic measurement fixture and figured out the threads in the receiver were not at right angle to the front of the receiver and from then on all their builds were on SA receivers........

I have a booklet, “Rifle U.S. Cal 30, M1, National Match 1957”. I think this was handed out at the National Matches because it was written as an informational brochure on the NM rifles of the year.

Section 5. Accuracy Firing

a. With the rifle supported in a rifle rest three ten shot groups are fired at 100 yards for accuracy using match ammunition. The average extreme spread of these groups cannot exceed 4.2 inches. Any one ten-shot group making this average cannot exceed 5.7 inches extreme spread. If these requirements are not met the rifle is rejected.

b. Figure 24 illustrates the distribution of averages of three ten-shot groups for 655 National Match Rifles targeted in this fashion. It is to be noted that all rifles to the right of the 4.2 inch line were screened out; the average of those accepted was a 3.4 inch average group size and eighty-eight rifles averaged three inches and under for three ten shot groups.

This is a accuracy of NM Garands, with the NM ammunition of the period, and these rifles were hand built at the Arsenal for tightness, function, barrels air gaged (I believe). You can expect the combat guns to shoot a lot worse. And if this is the accuracy of period match rifles, and that rifle was good enough to win WW2, what more rifle and ammunition does the military need?
 
The accuracy standard for the M16 - and earlier - is 2MOA with ten rounds. Tested, or that group of firearms could be rejected by Tank Command, IIRC?, who is charged with the authority to examine for acceptance.

They use issue ammo, as that is also part of the protocol. The date on that procedure was in the 1950's, which means the M1 and M14 had to qualify, too.

By inference, then the ammo better be 2MOA at worst to get lots of M16's to qualify at 2MOA.

Moving to the headstamp on a cartridge case of P8X, yup, it's 40 year old ammo and exactly why it was sold off. Old powder isn't consistent, which rarely seems to affect reloaders using a can from ages ago stuffing it in a used case etc. But is it a problem - it gets old and various lots do it faster than others. with pressures all over the map, the result is getting it pushed down the barrel at differing speeds, and different harmonics - the bullet isn't exiting at the smallest dispersion of the muzzle, it would vary, some bigger than another.

One aspect of reloading it working up a recipe until you see it either start flattening primers from overpressure, and backing down, or, also testing accuracy at the same time in batches and finding the smallest group, which usually occurs before the max load. In these days FPS is king and accuracy comes later, altho some do it "backwards" and enjoy better accuracy. Now imagine dropping hand dipped measures with no weighing - I suspect accuracy won't be good. Old powder is like that, one slower than the other.

If powder didn't age, then the only reason to sell it off would be a cartridge change, and they aren't keeping stuff around for that long. We would be issuing stuff loaded in the 80s to this day in some areas, and definitely shuffle it to the NG and Reserves for them to use while AD got the shiny stuff. Ask me how I know. That hasn't happened with ammo, tho, at all. Lots are tracked and if it starts showing up consistently with units having higher rates of not qualifying it's examined and tested. Lots that have aged are taken out of inventory and surplused. Some are sold only as scrap - there are artillery and tank fixtures on ammo sites for those rounds, the projectile pulled, powder dumped for burning, the case placed in the stand and you hammer the primer forcing it to go off. The projectiles with explosive are shipped to the old Dyno Nobel destruction plant near Carthage MO to be burned in a furnace which is paced by the type explosive so as to not overload the fire pit and cause an explosion. But, that never happens. Yeah sure.

Small arms ammo could be sent to allies for military aid to support their activities and remove too much of a lot into quicker consumption to prevent surplusing it in the medium range future. There is a lot of management of ammo - up to and including the batteries for cruise missiles, another Def contractor I worked for.

Been awhile I don't expect corrections of current procedures to be readily available but you're wa

So, Korean made 5.56 sold as surplus? Not controlled by DOD it sounds like, same as the Israeli battle packs and others we have seen pop up now and again. How it get here and since it's not LC, it's not American made here in MO. That plant is DOD owned and operated by a contractor who has been granted the authority to get it up to speed - LC can run 24/7/365 now on new equipment making small arms ammo and was up to a few years ago for the "war on terrror." DOD started slowing down, they started cutting shifts and reduced staff thru normal retirements and no layoffs. You don't poison your labor pool in that region, bad management is not rewarded unlike the hire and fire attitude of retail and some badly managed local factories.

Point being, buying old, surplused foreign ammo and getting 4MOA, you get what you pay for. Anyone finding old attle packs of .375 SOCOM, PM me or BigBore the Tromix customer. We will even cut you in for a 1c a more a round.

<opens window in new tab watching . .. . >
 
If powder didn't age, then the only reason to sell it off would be a cartridge change, and they aren't keeping stuff around for that long. We would be issuing stuff loaded in the 80s to this day in some areas, and definitely shuffle it to the NG and Reserves for them to use while AD got the shiny stuff. Ask me how I know. That hasn't happened with ammo, tho, at all. Lots are tracked and if it starts showing up consistently with units having higher rates of not qualifying it's examined and tested. Lots that have aged are taken out of inventory and surplused. Some are sold only as scrap - there are artillery and tank fixtures on ammo sites for those rounds, the projectile pulled, powder dumped for burning, the case placed in the stand and you hammer the primer forcing it to go off. The projectiles with explosive are shipped to the old Dyno Nobel destruction plant near Carthage MO to be burned in a furnace which is paced by the type explosive so as to not overload the fire pit and cause an explosion. But, that never happens. Yeah sure.

Small arms ammo could be sent to allies for military aid to support their activities and remove too much of a lot into quicker consumption to prevent surplusing it in the medium range future. There is a lot of management of ammo - up to and including the batteries for cruise missiles, another Def contractor I worked for.

Point being, buying old, surplused foreign ammo and getting 4MOA, you get what you pay for.

Great information! :thumbup:
 
My son has shot and loaded 7.62 and .308 and assembled long range boltaction rifles as a hobby.

I txted him and asked his opinion of 7.62x51mm M80 ammo.

His reply was
_ good for plinking with a semi -auto
_ not much for accuracy or distance

Found out he sold off his CETME and FAL a few years back.
 
I have never shot M80 ammo but I have loaded the 147gr M80 bullets for my son. I never get could make them shoot as well as everything else I made for him. I tried it with my favorite .308 powder, IMR4064. I also tried H4895, Varget and BL-C(2) without acceptable results although 4064 and Varget Worked a little better than the other 2 powders.

Crap bullets usually result in crap ammo.
 
Pull 10 of the bullets and have a look at the bases. I have found quite a bit a variation on pulls that I have used. It has been as extreme as going from rounded out profile to a fairly deep concave tail where the exposed lead is. Different shaped or non symmetrical tails will have a large impact on accuracy.
 
My M80 Armscor shoots just fine in my Springfield M1a, and my Savage Hog Hunter. All around inch and a half, two inches at 100 yards. 147 FMJ. annealed brass. Good stuff.
 
This ^
My M80 ball cloner load with Hornady 150 FMJs is usually right around an inch from a LC case with 8208 XBR. Id have to go look, but Im at about 2850 fps.
The Hornady fmj has given me similar results.
But the Hornady frontier ammo looks like buckshot.
Federal fmj will sometimes run 7 into half an inch with 3 flyers that open it to 3 plus moa. But it always opens up 2.5-3 MOA for 10 rounds.
 
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