What OAL for Berry's 148 Gr. HBWC ?

[Bruce H.]

Today I loaded some 38 Special rounds, using Berry's plated 148 gr. HBWCs over 4.1 grains of Winchester 231, for my Blackhawk. I have never loaded or even shot wadcutters before, so I am not familiar with how much of the bullet should stick out of the brass case after loading. My Lyman manual only has data on one wadcutter, a 150 gr. linotype bullet. The manual shows a minimum overall length of 1.317" for the 150 gr. linotype. The Hodgdon web site shows data for a 148 gr. lead HBWC. It shows the min. OAL to be 1.160". I know that with the lead HBWCs there is a groove near the tip of the bullet where the roll crimp should be. But the plated bullets have no grooves to use as a reference. With the cartridges I loaded today I used an OAL of 1.300" to be on the safe side. The bullets stick out approx.
.130" beyond the neck of the brass case. What OAL do some of you use when loading these Berry's 148 gr. HBWCs for 38 Special ?

 

[ReloaderFred]

Hollow base wadcutters should be loaded even with the case mouth, and a small roll crimp used to hold them in place. There shouldn't be any of the bullet protuding from the case mouth with these bullets.

I shoot the Berry's HBWC bullet, and that's the way they're intended to be loaded.

Hope this helps.

Fred

 

[rcmodel]

Max load for a HB-WC with WW231 in a .357 is shown on Hodgdons website as 3.0 starting. with a max load of 3.4 grains giving 908 FPS.

The risk of over-driving a hollow-base wadcutter is, the skirt may blow out in the forcing cone, then shed and stick in the bore.

I know you said Berry Plated, but you may be over a max charge with 4.1 grains and a 148 HB-WC, plated or not.

DEWC or solid WC can be safely driven much faster then a Hollow-Base WC.

rcmodel

 

[Bruce H.]

Rcmodel, yes I just looked at the Hodgdon web site for .357 magnum and the powder load numbers you quote are in fact listed there. I was not looking for a .357 magnum load when I accessed the Hodgdon web site, but a 38 Special load. If you look at the Hodgdon web site under 38 Special like I did, they list 3.5 to 4.0 grains of Win. 231 using a 148 gr. LHBWC. My Lyman manual lists 3.7 to 4.2 grains of Win. 231 for a 150 gr. linotype wadcutter bullet. That is how I came up with a powder charge of 4.1 gr. for my Berry's 148 gr. HBWC.

So how can the load for a .357 magnum, using the same bullet, call for less powder than a corresponding 38 Special load? I am not trying to be a smart-ass. How can this be? My Lyman manual does not list any Win. 231 loads for .357 magnum. So I cannot compare them with the listed 38 Special loads.

ReloaderFred, what could happen if I shoot the wadcutters with the bullet not flush with the end of the case? I do not have a severe roll crimp, so I could probably seat the bullets further into the brass case if a disaster can result.

 

[ReloaderFred]

Bruce,

There's nothing at all dangerous about shooting the rounds the way you have them loaded now with part of the bullet above the case mouth. The only problem would be if the crimp cut through the plating, which would result in the bullets tumbling when the plating comes off the bullet.

Don't try to reseat the plated bullets after crimping, as that will cut the plating for sure. You should be ok with just shooting them like they are and then when you set up next time, just seat them flush. If you've ever looked at factory wadcutters, that's the way they're loaded.

When I was shooting PPC back in the 1970's, I've shot many thousands of HBWC bullets in matches and practices. I've experimented with them in just about every conceivable configuration and seated flush always gave the best results.

Solid wadcutters, with the crimping groove just below the tip of the bullet work fine if seated to the crimping groove, but I've never gotten the level of accuracy from them that I got with HBWC bullets seated flush.

Hope this helps.

Fred

 

[Bruce H.]

Thanks for the input ReloaderFred. Do you have a feel for which of the Hodgdon's data is incorrect? The Winchester 231 load data for 38 Special or what they have listed for .357 Magnum? One of them has to be wrong, but which one?

 

[rcmodel]

So how can the load for a .357 magnum, using the same bullet, call for less powder than a corresponding 38 Special load?

.357 = 3.4 = 908 FPS @ 17,600 PSI.
.38 = 4.0 = 956 @ 15,900 PSI.



That's what we call in the reloading game, an anomaly in the data! :banghead:

One of them is obviously wrong, but I don't know which one.

rcmodel

 

[ReloaderFred]

The Lyman 48th Edition shows a 150 grain solid wadcutter at 4.2 grains of Winchester 231 @ 16,200 CUP. The OAL is listed as 1.317", which means it's seated to the crimping groove.

A HBWC, while longer, has the hollowbase, which adds volume to the powder chamber of the cartridge. This may be enough to drop the pressure a little.

At any rate, even the 4.1 grain load wouldn't surpass +P pressures in the .38 Special.

I always load my wadcutters with Bullseye, so I've never used the load Bruce is using, but from looking at several sources of data, it appears that his load is at the top end.

For best results with this target bullet, it would probably be a good idea to back off on the load a little bit. This should get you better accuracy.

Hope this helps.

Fred

 

[Bruce H.]

Thanks for the help guys. I used my kinetic bullet puller and was able to pull the first bullet that I tried without damaging the bullet. There is an indentation around the circumference of the bullet from the crimp, but the plating has not been pierced. Tomorrow I will pull all 70 of the bullets and start again with a lower powder load. After carefully looking at the Hodgdon data for 38 Special and .357 Magnum for numerous powders, I suspect that the Win. 231 powder load data for 38 Special is really the .357 Magnum data and vice versa. I will load about 10 rounds using pulled bullets with 3.4 grains of Win. 231 and the bullet seated flush with the brass and see how they shoot before I load anymore. I am glad that we had this discussion before I tried shooting the bullets I loaded today. Thanks again.

 

[zxcvbob]

A HBWC, while longer, has the hollowbase, which adds volume to the powder chamber of the cartridge. This may be enough to drop the pressure a little.

The hollow base in the bullet is exactly offset by the extra length. For the same overall length, a DEWC and a HBWC will have the same case volume and therefore the same pressure. (I figured this out when I first started loading .38's and wondered what to do when the load data didn't say what profile wadcutter)

 

[rcmodel]

I dug out a 1993 Winchester #13 powder data pamphlet.

They show:
.38 Spl. = 3.0 grains 231 giving 690 FPS at 13,600.

.357 Mag = 3.4 grains 231 giving 880 FPS @ 19,500.

rcmodel

 

[Bruce H.]

Thanks rcmodel, I am just about ready to start loading some of the HBWCs. I will begin with 3.0 grains of Win. 231.

Bruce