What semi auto, .308 MBR?

[TMM]

The title basically says it. i've thought of the FAL, HK91, PTR-91, M1A, CETME, and G3. i think the PTR is delayed blowback, which eliminates the necessity of cleaning the gas tube, especially then you shoot corrosive ammo. anyway, this is what i'm looking for:

accurate (~1MOA with iron sights, perhaps)
reliable
last-shot hold-open
relatively inexpensive
replacement parts availible
ease of mainanance (like the delayed blowback instead of gas system)

what do y'all say? i originally thought the FAL would be good, but i think it has issues with last-shot hold-open, and the sights weren't that good.

~TMM

 

[Darth Muffin]

I love my PTR-91, I can't recommend it enough! Accuracy, quality, and value are all excellent. I firmly believe they are at least as good as a genuine HK-91, and about 1/3rd of the price!

Yes, there's no gas system to clean but in reality that doesn't save a whole lot of time. The fluted chamber and delayed blowback system get the bolt and breech area really dirty. Doesn't affect functioning of the gun, I know people who have gone over 2000 rounds between cleanings with no problems, but it does cause extra effort for us anal-retentive types who like to detail strip the whole gun after every outing.

There is no last shot hold-open. Maintenance is very easy (complete break down with no tools in 60 seconds). Parts are very available and relatively cheap, especially surplus stocks and magazines.

Edit: some more details: The PTR-91 should run about $750-800 delivered for the base model. Mine does about 2 MOA with milsurp ammo and iron sights. I would not at all be surprised to see 1 MOA with match ammo and a good shooter (not me). Yes, it's rough on brass. I don't reload but people who do say you can only get 2-3 reloads on the brass, that assumes you can find your brass (it ejects them with extreme prejudice to say the least). 308 surplus is cheap anyhow

 

[itgoesboom]

accurate (~1MOA with iron sights, perhaps) Not going to get a guarantee on this from any of those choices. Military rifles are usually not MOA out of the box. Specs usually say anything under 4MOA is fine. You might get better, many do. My CETME will do under 1" @ 75 yards where I shoot, with surplus ammo.

reliable All are reliable, even the clones, as long as purchased from a solid manufacturer.

last-shot hold-open Elminates 4 of your choices. G3, PTR-91, HK91 and CETME are all the same action, and none have last shot hold open.

relatively inexpensive Eliminates the G3 and HK91; HK91s go very a couple thousand, and real G3s are Class III items and are way more expensive. Thats if there are any on the registry. M1As are expensive, usually over $1K, and real good ones (LRB & Fulton) are about $2k+.

replacement parts availible Shouldn't be an issue with any of them.

ease of mainanance (like the delayed blowback instead of gas system) As mentioned already, delayed blowback doesn't mean less maintanance. My CETME gets very dirty, and it is tough to clean, and I like to have a nice clean rifle. I easily spend 1hr everytime after shooting cleaning that sucker, and it still has gunk in it.

I.G.B.

 

[mack]

The closet thing to your criteria I can think of would be an AR 10 in 308 - Seems like they are the most accurate for the price. Decent article in American Rifleman on one brand. Personally I love the M1A, but you aren't going to get 1MOA in your typical M1A unless you are willing to spend more money.
AR 10 isn't cheap 1,000 to 1,300, but for the accuracy they are relatively inexpensive. Of course that is assuming that accuracy and price are your two primary concerns. Mine are reliability and accuracy, followed by price, which means that I often have to wait a long time to purchase what I want.

 

[meh92]

M1 Garand?

I recently went through the same mental discussion. I'm no expert, but here's some of the reasoning I went through before deciding.

After examining CETME's at a few local shows I ruled them out. If nothing else, the fit, finish, and rough feeling of the guns left me unimpressed. They were, however, very affordable.

The PTR-91's look very promising, as do the G3's and HK91's. They are all expensive, though, and I have been told that they are very rough on brass, making repeated case reloading a risky proposition. Maybe someone else with experience could chime in on that.

The M1A used to be affordable but even a Springfield GI gun is at or above $1000. The high cheek weld required for eye-scope alignment requires a serious cheek-piece or a new stock. For irons it isn't an issue. I have been told that the ejection system is not as rough on cartridges as the HK's, but that reloadable case-life is nowhere that of a bolt gun.

The FAL is the right arm of the free world... what else can you say? Examples can be had for well under $1K and the adjustable gas system can easily adjust to meet different ammo needs. Magazines and parts are readily available. The sights don't impress me, but those can be changed. Also, there are several variants to suit your particular needs.

Corrosive ammo is not a huge issue with me, since I clean my guns regularly anyway.

Eventually, I bought an M1 Garand. Sure it's not a .308, but quality M2 ball ammo (in clips) is cheap and plentiful from the CMP right now. If that would change in the future, converting a Garand to .308 is no big deal. The lack of a protruding box magazine makes it much more comfortable for me, particularly shooting prone. It may not be high-capacity but 8 rounds of M2 at a time should be plenty for my needs. As far as case life is concerned, a regular posted on the CMP forum stated that most of the trauma caused to the case is at the mouth, which is easily fixed during resizing. I have yet to reload for it so we'll see how that pans out.

One downside to the Garand is that it is not really intended for commerical 30-06 loads. These loads operate at higher-than-M2 pressures and can eventually bend the operating rod. Capacity might also be an issue for you.

As an upside, it has been battle-tested in every imaginable theater and proven to be a rugged, dependable, reliable piece of equipment.

That all said, I'd still like an FAL or possibly an M1A someday down the road.

 

[rfurtkamp]

If you have problems with bolt not holding back on a FAL, chances are it's got one of the British modified BHO releases. It's a < $20 part and a five minute swap out.

 

[m39fan]

Actually, on the FAL/L1A1's, it's usually just a missing or cut pin keeping the BHO from working. Pound the stump out (if there), put in a .29 pin and away you go. BTW, my L1A1 and Imbel both regularly print 1.5" at 100yds. That's about the best you'll get from a MBR. If you need more accuracy, go with a bolt action. The Savage 10/110's are consistently the most accurate out of the box with .75" groups being common.

HTH,
Mike

 

[hksw]

accurate (~1MOA with iron sights, perhaps)
.
.
.
relatively inexpensive

Finding an MBR with those characteristics on the same page will be a miraculous find. Good luck in your search.

As noted by others, the HK91, G3, CETME, and PTR-91 are identical or nearly identical. Although they do not have a gas system, the upper portion of the receiver will get filthy like no other MBR rifle's upper receiver.

As someone has noted, probably the closest you'll get is a 7.62 X 51 AR, but as noted above it'll be the closest to the top criteria (1MOA) but pretty far from the bottom (inexpensive).

 

[stoky]

+1
meh92 and the mighty Garand

~1 moa and inexpensive are incongruous requirements. A moa sounds good, but really shouldn't be expected of a MBR.

 

[30Cal]

+1
meh92 and the mighty Garand

~1 moa and inexpensive are incongruous requirements. A moa sounds good, but really shouldn't be expected of a MBR.

Especially with surplus (fodder) ammo.

 

[Deer Hunter]

I would go with a DSA FAL or an M1 Garand. My personal favorite would be the FAL, but not quite as accurate as the Garand. Although it feels better when I'm shooting it.

 

[MachIVshooter]

M1A or AR-10 are about the only rifles that will fit your bill. None of the roller delayed blowback guns have a last shot hold open; FAL's are not typically MOA out of the box. Standard M1A or AR-10A2/A4 should hold around MOA; the M1A National match or AR-10(T) will shoot sub-MOA, but are around $2K.

 

[TMM]

thanks for the thoughts. ok, so the MOA accuracy isn't necesary...

i heard .308 AR's were finiky and unreliable. also the light rifle and heavyish cartridge dosn't mix very well.

for the PTR-91: can you throw somthing in, or bring it to a gunsmith, to make it last-shot hold-open?

looks like i may go back to the FAL, or perhaps if i find a cheap one, M1A or M14(semi). how easy is the FAL to clean?

~TMM

 

[Deer Hunter]

FALs are very easy to clean, but why clean them? Check this link out. Haha, you'll get a kick out of it.
http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=68486&perpage=30&pagenumber=1
The Tale of Ol' Dirty: A Texas Legend.

FALs have an adjustable gas system, so you can set your gun to whichever type of ammunition you are shooting. That can take recoil out of the round. Also, the relative weight of the FAL (around 8.7-9.7 pounds) will soak up recoil quite nicely. I've heard the DSA FAL's bolts hold open on the last bullet. They also come with a bipod, which is always handy. AR-10s are nice, but a bit pricey.

 

[pmbiker]

Saiga .308

 

[gp911]

I recently went through the same mental discussion. I'm no expert, but here's some of the reasoning I went through before deciding.


The PTR-91's look very promising, as do the G3's and HK91's. They are all expensive, though, and I have been told that they are very rough on brass, making repeated case reloading a risky proposition. Maybe someone else with experience could chime in on that.

HK91s and PTR-91s basically flute the brass, making reloading virtually impossible. I'm sure somebody has done it, but I'd rather just buy more Portugese surplus ammo for peace of mind.

That said, I still wouldn't mind a PTR-91...

My personal favorite of those listed is the FAL, but accuracy approaching 1 MOA isn't happening in one of those or the HK/PTR on a consistent basis. 2 MOA is plausible though... If I want 1 MOA accuracy I'll shoot my AR...


gp911

 

[jaimeshawn]

another ditto for meh92.

Pick up a CMP Garand, and after you get really good at shooting it and wear the barrel out, or when the supply of surplus 30-06 dries up, rebarrel to .308. The sights are great and better than the FAL - It doesn't damage your brass like the fluted chamber of the HK/G3, so you can reload for it - It's reliable and accurate.

 

[Mad Bodhi]

M14/M1a is without a doubt the finest battle rifle ever made.Accurate and stone reliable,cheap it is not.But like a quote i read somewhere says "Expensive is when it's not worth the money".The M14 is worth the money.Hell,Navy SEAL's seem to have a fondness for them and it was the choice of MOH recipient Delta Team sniper Randy Shugart in his valiant final battle alongside team mate Gary Gordon in Somalia.These guy's could aquire anything,they chose the M14.The M14 has a self regulating gas system.No need to dial in like the Fal and it works within a broader range than the Fal.The finest trigger and sights in the business,far superior to any other MBR.The Fal was taken out of service by the Israeli's for choking in the same conditions the M14 is chewing up in the sandbox right now.Also, Smith Enterprises along with the U.S. Military is advancing the technology of this weapon and battle testing it.The M14 continues to evolve.The Crazy Horse and DMR program really brought the platform into it's own.

 

[TMM]

i really love the Garand. but, i'm looking for a fungun/SHTF rifle. the Garand, IMO, is not perfect for SHTF. the 8 round clip just dosn't do it for me, although i will probably get one someday.

the M14/M1A is probably the best choice - maybe i'll just save up and get one of those... "Buy quality and only cry once", you know?

i still LOVE the lines of the FAL (so long, thin... very clean lines), and the fact that the SA58 has an integral bipod.

i'll probably get one of these first, depending on my funds, and get the other later...

~TMM

 

[assegai]

You won't touch 1 MOA with ball ammo.

or with match ammo and a rack grade rifle. You might get 2 MOA with match ammo and a service rifle, or with a match rifle and ball ammo, but that's all you'll get. You'll find out that in order to retain 1 MOA with the M1A, you can't rapid fire it much at all, or you'll get bedding shifts. You'll also have to tweak it every few hundred rds. That's why the Advanced Marksmanship Unit of the military abandoned it over 7 years ago.

 

[bobhaverford]

or with match ammo and a rack grade rifle. You might get 2 MOA with match ammo and a service rifle, or with a match rifle and ball ammo, but that's all you'll get. You'll find out that in order to retain 1 MOA with the M1A, you can't rapid fire it much at all, or you'll get bedding shifts. You'll also have to tweak it every few hundred rds. That's why the Advanced Marksmanship Unit of the military abandoned it over 7 years ago.

What did the AMU go with after abandoning the M1A?