What the Heck is going on in Kansas?

[Kankujoe]

First, the exiting AG posts the list of States the Kansas recognizes. Two days later the new AG removes the list and gives no other policy concerning out of state permits. No one, not even LEO know who is currently legal (except Kansans with CHPs).

Next: From what I'm reading many towns & cities are scrambling to pass laws & ordinances pre-empting State law and effectively prohibiting carry in most public places. Some LEO administrators are also encouraging private businesses to post against CHP.

How is anyone to know who & where CCW is legal in Kansas? If I lived in Kansas I'd be real pissed about what is happening. I live in Missouri and I pissed because my kids & grandkids live in Kansas.

 

[coyote_jr]

Some LEO administrators are also encouraging private businesses to post against CHP.

Do you have a source for this?

 

[xd45gaper]

im not totally sure about this but i beleve that happend in FLA with the towns trying to make it Illegal to carry and the state finally stepped in and said you could legally carry anywhere in the state (except what was listed on your permit schools, bars etc.) because it was so out of whack from one town you could carry and the next you couldnt. people where getting confused and what not lol

hopefully KS will pull there head out of there A$$ and get it straight because i have all my family there and would like to carry when i go home!

 

[insidious_calm]

FYI, cities may not preempt cocealed carry anywhere so long as you are carrying within the context of the new cch statutes i.e. concealed on your person. The state law preempts any existing city ordinances. That said there are many, many places you cannot carry including bars, schools, daycare or child exchange places, courthouses, any state owned building, churches, any prfessional or school sponsored sporting event, and a few other places.

To my knowledge Phill Kline never posted a reciprocity list specifically because of the incoming AG. There were about 10 states that were thought to be likely candidates however. I never recieved any list from the CCH staff office and I am one of the instructors. Reciprocity may be zero depending on how Pual Moronson interprets the law. Given CCH was one of the previous AG's pet projects I don't look for ANY cooperation from the new AG.


I.C.

 

[phorvick]

The original list was posted here:

http://www.ksag.org/Concealed_Weapon/Recognition_of_other_states.htm

and that page was linked from the KS AG web site.

 

[XD_fan]

There was an article a few weeks ago about a police chief Arkansas City, Kansas who was advocating that all businesses post against CCW and providing signs for this.

Here is a link: http://www.kbsd6.com/Global/story.asp?S=5800199

This is just the usual blood in the streets and wild west argument. It will pass in time.

 

[MJZZZ]

There was indeed a list posted and cities are also going against the state preemption laws. For a CCW trainer you are behind on your trade knowledge.

http://www.ksconcealedcarry.com/viewtopic.php?t=731
sorry it's a long read to find the wording of the carry bans.

Phill Klines list
Kansas ' Recognition of other states' Conceal Carry Licenses

On July 1, 2006 Kansas joined 47 other states allowing qualified citizens to carry handguns in a concealed manner. In addition to licensing qualified residents, the Kansas Personal and Family Protection Act (KPFPA) granted authority to the Attorney General to determine which other states' concealed carry licenses would be recognize in the state of Kansas, and to authorize a licensed non-resident to carry a concealed handgun within the borders of Kansas. The KPFPA, found in S.B. 418 (as amended by H.B. 2118), will be codified as K.S.A. §75-7c01 et seq.

According to K.S.A. § 75-7c03(c), the determination of the states recognized is accomplished through an “equal to or greater than” standard. The Attorney General determined that if a state's concealed carry laws contains the following requirements, that state meets the “equal to or greater than” standard;

the state requires a national fingerprint-based background check on its applicants;
a pending arrest/charge for a disqualifying act would subject an applicant/licensee to denial/suspension pending the outcome of that arrest/charge;
formal training on legal issues and the safe handling of firearms is required prior to licensure;
a live fire exercise must be completed to determine an applicants firearm handling and shooting capabilities; and
that the applicants must be at least 21 years of age at the time of application.
Based on a review of the applicable state laws and conversations with officials from each of the respective states, the following 22 states satisfy the requirements listed above:

Alaska
Arizona
Arkansas
Colorado
Florida
Hawaii
Kentucky
Louisiana
Michigan
Minnesota
Missouri
Nebraska
Nevada
New Jersey
New Mexico
North Carolina
Ohio
Oklahoma
South Carolina
Tennessee
Texas
West Virginia
There is one (1) additional state Wyoming that is pending a determination of whether it will meet the criteria for recognition.

A review of applicable state laws and discussions with state officials from each of the respective states, the following 24 states do not meet the minimum requirements as outlined above:

Alabama - Does not meet age, training, live fire, or pending charges requirements
California - Does not meet the age requirement
Connecticut - Does not have a live fire requirement
Delaware - Does not meet age requirement
Georgia - Does not have either training or live fire requirements
Idaho - Does not have a live fire requirement
Indiana - Does not meet age requirement
Iowa - Does not meet age requirement
Maine - Does not meet age requirement
Maryland - Does not meet age requirement
Massachusetts - Does not have a formal shooting requirement
Mississippi - Does not have a training requirement
Montana - Does not meet age requirement
New Hampshire - Does not meet age or background requirements
New York - Does not meet training requirement
North Dakota - Does not meet age requirement
Oregon - Does not meet the live fire requirement
Pennsylvania - Does not meet training or live fire requirements
Rhode Island - Does not meet training requirement
South Dakota - Does not meet age requirement
Utah - Does not meet live fire requirement
Vermont - Essentially, no requirements at all (no license is issued)
Virginia - Does not meet live fire requirement
Washington - Does not meet training or live fire requirements


Which has disappeared from the new AG's site. Mike Z

 

[S.P.E.C.T.R.E.]

Duluth, Minnesota tried to ban CPL holders on city property. A CPL holder wrote the Chief of Police and called BS. The Chief consulted with the city attorneys, and basically wrote back and said "yep you're right, we can't pre-empt state law, thanks for writing".

Hopefully once the hysteria in KS calms down a bit, it will all get sorted out.

 

[Steve 48]

The new AG is new and ran as a Democrat but was a "limo republican" from Johnson county who was pretty anti CCH anyway. There are cities who think they have found a loophole in the law. All I got from the AG's office was someone would have to be arrested first before they could render an opinion. What a bunch of di..heads down there. They have no leadership or really care about this law and so does the Governor who was overidden by the legislature. Steve48

 

[insidious_calm]

Ok, missed the list. It must not have been up long. It is not on the current site. nor was it up as of Dec 30th which was the date of my last class. It was never sent by mail to the listed instructors or I would have got it. I WOULD NOT rely on that list unless you verify it with the current AG.

I think there are a lot of cities that would LIKE to preempt the state law, but I don't see it happening. In fact I see a large check coming for the person so inconvienced. ksa 75-7c17 is the applicable law and it states:

Any city ordinance or county resolution that regulates, restricts or prohibits the carrying of concealed weapons shall not be applicable to any person licensed in accordance with the provisions of this act.

I.C.


P.S. - For the record regarding not being "Up to date with my trade" I will simply say this - I teach what the AG says I teach. As will ALL CCH instructors if they wish to remain instructors. Unless that list is either a) currently posted on the official AG webpage, or b) Part of the instructors manual as maintained by the AG's staff and sent to instructors, it is not valid. I WILL NOT teach something or do something that may lead on of my students into being a test case. That will not benefit me or them.

There will be test cases to come. I'm sure of it. I just don't want any of my students involved. Not to mention the liability that would come from teaching outside the approved course structure. It's not that I wouldn't like to see that list be accurate. It's certainly larger than the one I discussed with C.W. Klebe, but if it isn't up it isn't up.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

An interesting legal question: A list WAS posted by the former AG. That list was a "determination" made in accordance with the law. The list has now been removed from the AG's web site, but not before some enterprising people saw it and copied it. But ...

... has the previous "determination" been formally un-determined? Is that list officially voided out, or does it still have force and effect (if you know about it) because the new AG has not issued a "determination" that the old list is void and that the new determination is that no states meet his criteria for recognition?

Does anyone know?

 

[insidious_calm]

Aguila Blanca,

You are asking a legal question, so let me qualify my opinion as distinctly not legal advice. With regard to the list and reciprocity the law gives the sole determining authority to the AG. Specifically KSA 75-7c03(c):

A valid license issued by any other state or the District of Columbia, to carry concealed weapons shall be recognized as valid in this state, but only while the holder is not a resident of Kansas, if the attorney general determines that standards for issuance of such license or permit by such state or district are equal to or greater than the standards imposed by this act. The provisions of this subsection shall take effect and be in force from and after January 1, 2007.

The qualifier is "standards equal to or greater than" those set forth in Kansas law. That determination is the sole realm of the AG and there is considerable wiggle room. In the best case scenario the list would look something like what was posted here earlier. In the worst case it would be zero because the Kansas program requires the teaching of Kansas law on the use of deadly force and the consequences thereof. No other states likely teach Kansas law on the subject. :banghead:

The new AG is no friend of gun owners or concealed carry. There is an ongoing power struggle between the current and the former (read the news). I think concealed carry is being used as a pawn in the game because it was a pet project of the former AG.

My opinion is that there are currently no other states recognized. The new AG took the posted list down and no new list has been posted. He is within his legal authority to do so. Unless/until he posts a new list or you have your particular state verified in writing I wouldn't risk it.


Regarding police or judicial activism on concealed carry:

Some LEO administrators are also encouraging private businesses to post against CHP.

I personally confirmed (saw it myself) today that the Douglas county district attorney is handing out the approved signs with the message added at the bottom: "Courtesy of district attorney Charles Branson". It is my understanding that the district attorney did in fact solicit the placement of these signs.

For those who don't know Douglas county is the only county out of 104 in the state that went democratic in the last election. People there are about as liberal as you get. Some of the agendas would make Berkely, CA jealous. I fully expect that the City of Lawrence will be the source of one or more test cases. Wichita will most likely be another.


I.C.

 

[Kankujoe]

Just did a Google search to see if anything is new in Kansas...

This is what comes up first... no other citations are even attributed to the State of Kansas...

Concealed Carry Document Page Click Here
to review the Regulations governing Kansas Concealed Carry. *This is recommended reading for trainers and applicants alike.* ...
http://www.kansas.gov/ksag/Concealed...rry_Update.htm - 5k

Without some kind of retraction or new posting by the Kansas AG this appears to be the current law... if the AG wanted to remove this he could but he chooses not to...?

If someone from a listed "recognized" state was arrested for CCW with this info still up on the Kansas government webpage be entrapment?

 

[GHF]

Florida Signed an Agreement with Kansas

As of this minute, the following appears at the Florida CCW site

http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/news/concealed_carry.html

Concealed Carry Reciprocity
PLEASE NOTE: The reciprocity information on this page is ALWAYS CURRENT. The Division of Licensing constantly monitors changing gun laws in other states and attempts to negotiate agreements as the laws in those states allow. This list was last updated on January 5, 2007, when Kansas became the 30th state to enter into an agreement with Florida.


So the former AG must have signed an agreement with Florida.

 

[Kankujoe]

As of this minute, the following appears at the Florida CCW site

http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/new...led_carry.html

Concealed Carry Reciprocity
PLEASE NOTE: The reciprocity information on this page is ALWAYS CURRENT. The Division of Licensing constantly monitors changing gun laws in other states and attempts to negotiate agreements as the laws in those states allow. This list was last updated on January 5, 2007, when Kansas became the 30th state to enter into an agreement with Florida.


So the former AG must have signed an agreement with Florida.

Now this is interesting... if Florida has an official reciprocity agreement with Kansas (former AG)... it would be rather indignant for the current AG to rescind the agreement a few weeks later... talk about bad form... it could be pretty embarassing to all involved...

 

[Sniper X]

That sort of thing about certain businesses here in NM trying to post up no CCW on premises came and went big time! All the businesses who tried it stepped off after about two months of business falling off drastically after the CCW had been here for abot two years. Our big AM talker here had a whole day of discussing it, the main Radio talk guy is a gun carrying coll guy, and they were saying every business they onterviewed who had psted the sign as to no CCW or open carry on premisses had lost about %60 of their business and took the signs down. Makes you see where the real priority of the liberals lie.....right in their pocketbook!

 

[insidious_calm]

This appears settled...

http://www.ksag.org/Divisions/CCU/License%20Recognition.PDF


A strong word of caution though....

A non-resident concealed carry licensee from a state recognized by the state of Kansas
must: 1) be a resident of the state where the license was issued; 2) be able to show proof
of licensure and residency from the state of issuance; and 3) abide by Kansas concealed
carry laws while traveling, visiting or working in this state.

Emphasis mine. It appears you may not carry here on another states non-resident license . Stay safe...



I.C