What to do here (Older Charter Bulldog)

[OMCHamlin]

OK, a while back, I got to thinking that I wanted an older Charter Arms .44 Special Bulldog, and found a minty one on line at a price that I thought was fair enough.

When I first went to shoot it, I loaded it up with some factory 240 SWC ammo that was clean and new looking (but of undetermined history) and hauled back on the trigger and...<<CLICK>>..., nothing. ALL of the next rounds fired either double or single action went off just fine (the original dud round went on the second strike).

I went out a second time and put darn near another box of Magtech new factory 240 gr flatpoints through it with no misfires. To date, thats roughly 70rounds fired with one (the very first one fired) of the 70 a no-go on the first strike. While looking this over, I noted that some of the brass looked to have off-center strikes, so on the second outting, I marked each one for orientation reference in their chambers and cylinder, and later took the attached photographs. In each photo, the round shown at 10 oclock was the first round under the firing pin. Again, no misfires in this batch of ammo at all.






So, my questions are these:
1. Based on the 1 to 70 malfunction ratio that has not yet repeated itself, do I have a problem?
2. Based on the offcenter strike photos, do I have a problem?
3. Based on the info I have gathered, I wonder if replacing the cylinder stop with a slightly wider one (or at least a NEW one) would help center the strikes? If so, how hard is that to accomplish?
4. If I left the cylinder stop alone, could I replace the hammer spring with a Wolf Extra power spring to add a margin of insurance to ignite the offcenter hits?
5. Charter claims to be able to fix older (pre-reorganization) guns for $49, do I send this to them? (I ask that with a grain of salt, based on the new stuff I've seen come out of their doors lately)

Other then that, the gun hits well, just an inch or so left of center at 15 yards or so and I would like to solve this, if it is a problem at all.

So, anyhow, I would appreciate any advice (beyond the "throw it in the lake" comments) offered.

Thanks and happy new year!
R/
OMC

 

[KosmicKrunch]

I have found the older orig Bulldogs are better made and sturdier than the new ones.

It very well could have been an ammunition issue, especially since you do not know the history of it.

I normally do a shake down of a revolver of at least 100 new rounds, then I try some reloads. If no more misfires, then chaulk it up to 1 bad round. I would not do any gunsmithing on it if it passes shakedown.

In my experience, Bulldogs rarely have misfire issues, they do however have timing issues since their hands and cylinder stops are somewhat weak comparred to other big bore guns.

Your primer strikes, although off center, do not look like a timing issue.

That leaves us with side to side end shake or a cylinder lug and stop issue. Could also be an off center fireing pin. It does not look like shake issues based on the consistancy of strikes. It also does not look like a stop issue as the strikes are high and not low. This leaves us with the firing pin.

First, the firing pin. It is a strike transfer stationary firing pin. It is retained by a small drift pin in to the frame. It is possible the firing pin hole is off center or, more likely, the firing pin is worn off center and based on the flat strike of the hammer, it may have worn one side of the firing pin.

This is a drawing and parts list:
http://www.charterfirearms.com/products/Bulldog_MagPug.pdf

If the firing pin hole is worn, then that will require Charter Arms repair. More likely a frame change out. My bet though is on the firing pin itself.

I took my bull dog out and fired 5 primed brass and then checked the strikes. Mine are centered. I then took the firing pin out and measured via using pin gages, I measured the hole size of the firing pin hole (approx .083 and the firing pin was at .079). I do not have a CMM handy so I could not measure the firing pin hole location.

A quick temp fix/check is to turn the firing pin 180 degrees, shoot 5 rounds and check firing pin orientation. If it goes center or off center in the op direction, then you know it is either a hole or pin issue.

If it is center after turing 180 degrees, then purchase a new firing pin, retainer spring and retaining pin (you have to order a min of $15 in parts anyways). Change out the old to new and fire some more and check orientation of the strikes. If it is still off center, then send the gun into Charter to fix, as true location of the hole is unknown, so a weld and re-drill is not in order. More likely than not, Charter will change out the frame and send you back, practically a new gun.

All of this is just in my humble opinion.

 

[OMCHamlin]

Kosmic, thanks for the reply and taking the time to check all that you did for me. When I look at the firing pin hits, as they are related when their chamber is at top center alignment, is looks to me that it hits slightly to the left of center, not so much displaced up or down. I will take a more detailed look at the firing pin as well though, and keep note of what you said. Also noting that you voted in favor of continued testing, so I can assume that you (like others on other forums) don't feel that the offcenter hits are too big a deal by themselves?
Thanks!
OMC

 

[rcmodel]

The hits are centered enough to be fine.
They are deep enough to fire any primer that was not defective.

I don't think you have a gun problem.

Buy some new ammo of known quality, and if it misfires with that, I might change my story.

Otherwise, don't worry about it until you can repete that one misfire with good ammo.

rc

 

[OMCHamlin]

That's GOOD, most votes are to continue shooting, don't be concerned YET. That's a choice I can do, although I did go ahead and order a new Wolf XP hammer spring (can't go wrong with THAT, right?) Cause I really like this gun, great size to power ratio for a wheelgun, it was just "un-nerving" to have that very first round go <<click>> instead of BANG, you know?

 

[Drail]

My money would definitely go on that CBC ammo so try some other brands (avoid CCI/Speer - they have harder primers than almost anyone else) I also agree with replacing the springs, especially the mainspring on an older Charter. Charter uses a beryllium firing pin which they used to guarantee to be unbreakable. (have never seen one break personally). I have carried an old Charter Pug for a lot of years and it has never once failed to bang a primer. You could try the pencil test - take a new pencil and cock the unloaded revolver pointing staright up at the ceiling - insert the pencil down the bore and pull the trigger. It it goes all the way up to the ceiling then your spring should be able to ignite any primer. If it only gets propelled up a foot or two it is a little weak. You should try this in single and double action and note the difference. With the XP spring it will stick a sharpened pencil into the ceiling. XP springs are a good idea for a defensive carry gun.

 

[KosmicKrunch]

I am iffy on the Wulff spring. The bulldog already has a light trigger by design. A Wulff spring may just make it too light, especially on cocked fire (SA). Believe it or not, a Bulldog is really sensitive to mechanical changes. You change one thing with the intention of making it better and then something else is thrown off kilder.

I would also suggest to get Speer Plastic bullets and cases and about 300 primers and shoot and reload the plastic shells 300 times. When doing this, make the primers shallow and deep at random. If you do not get any FTF, really, you do not have any problems.

I am one of those guys that say, if it really is not broke, don't fix it. Phantom failures really drive a smith nuts.

As I was fiddling with my bulldog a few hours ago and really checking mechanical function, the more I say, keep shooting and unless a failure is noted, brush it off to bad ammo.

 

[OMCHamlin]

"I am iffy on the Wulff spring. The bulldog already has a light trigger by design. A Wulff spring may just make it too light, especially on cocked fire (SA). "

No, I mean to install an EXTRA power hammer spring, not a reduced power one...

 

[KosmicKrunch]

Yes, I know you meant a power spring, replace it and see what happens to the trigger pull....it is one of the few guns that with more spring torqe/tension, the felt trigger pull will go lighter, not more, the hammer strike will be more of course. This is due to how the trigger and sear relate. I am honestly not convinced you need to do that. The firing pin can only mechanically go so far. If you want a deeper or harder strike, it would be best to reduce the length of the firing pin spring by grinding it down in length (DO NOT CUT IT), this will allow a deeper strike at the same factory tension. To grind the spring down, fit a hard wood dowel to the ID of the spring, drill a small hole through the diameter of the dowel and place a nail or bolt so the spring cannot move down the dowel. Grind the spring flat faced.... checking often the firing pin protrusion (you do not want primer piercing). You can check the depth by using a lead block, let the hammer drop on the pin while holding the block against the firing pin hole, then measure the depth via a depth micrometer. You would have to call Charter to find out what max protrusion should be as well as min/max spring length.

Again, as others have noted, your primer strike seems fine, even though a slight off center. If it is NOT broke, do not fix it, as you can cause other damage to a Bulldog with more powerful springs.

The majority consenses is 1 round of bad ammo. Just keep shooting, if you have a FTF, take a pic of the case side ways and of the head with primer in.

If you want, you can send it to me, pay S&H both ways, I will not charge you a dime to look it over and compare by measurement and inspection against my Bulldog. I will report back to you by part number if I find anything out of whack. PM me for my shipment addy.

I highly doubt I will find anything wrong though.

I seriously say do not mess with it and just keep shooting....one FTF is not anything to worry about.

 

[OMCHamlin]

Well, OK, so I'll have a spare spring around "just in case" then. Heck it was only $4 or so. I DO understand what you mean by unintended consequences though, so I'll just keep shooting the thing as is for now. I visually checked the firing pin condition and protrusion and tried to see if any play exists between the firing pin and it's hole, but that all seems tight and good.
Thanks!
OMC

 

[NCsmitty]

I agree with rcmodel's observation that there are no obvious issues by viewing the fired cases. Primer strikes look normal, so shoot away.

The only issue that I have heard of with the Bulldog is loosening of the crane after a lot of shooting over time.
My brother-in -law has one, and it is a thumper.



NCsmitty

 

[OMCHamlin]

OK, I'm willing to accept the group's opinion that they are not far enough off to be a PROBLEM, but you guys DO see that they are SOMEWHAT offcenter, right?

 

[rcmodel]

Yes, but find me a revolver that isn't off center a little.
Or an auto pistol that isn't off that far or more.

rc

 

[OMCHamlin]

Yes, but find me a revolver that isn't off center a little.
Or an auto pistol that isn't off that far or more.

rc

Well, I went out and put another 35 flawless rounds throught it, I guess it's getting to be good to go, perhaps that first round WAS a dud round, or something...

Heres a pic or two...

 

[PWM]

I have an older Charter Arms 44 special Bull Dog with a broken firing pin and was reading about the changing of the firing pin. How hard is it to do and what is the quickest way to change it with the least amount of gun disassembly?