What to do... what to do...

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milemaker13

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A couple weeks ago i started looking for a second semi auto. 22lr plinker; seriously considered a new marlin m60. A good fun plinker.
I kept looking, widened my search online and at a couple LGS. Found a handful of inexpensive older .22s on the used racks. The stand out being a remington 512 bolt action for a buck and a quarter. I think hmm, maybe I'll play around with that... mount a scope... go for accuracy. Ok, sounds fun.
I've been wanting a long range rifle for awhile and i see posts here showing 15 shot one hole groups at 100 yards and i want that. Who doesn't, right?
I think what I'll do is pick up the 512 to play with (or not) and start really thinking about a long range rifle. That will be an exhausting search for me since there are a lot of options with a lot of different levels of ' long range accuracy'.
Just tonight I'm looking at rifles online and see things like the savage axis & trophy hunter as well as some ruger and remington rifles. Prices from about 400 up to about 900+. Some as packages w/ scopes some with out. Different barrel lengths etc.
In my mind right now i think i want a rifle chambered in .223 with a wood stock and a longer(like 25") barrel. I may be way off on those specs...
I will undoubtedly start several more threads about this but to start ill ask...
What to do??
Time frame? Lets say maybe by next summer so lots of time, no rush. Plenty of stuff to play with til then.
 
A few questions...

How long is LONG range for you?

What are the uses you intend for the rifle/cartridge? Im assuming its will mostly be a fun gun, but if you MIGHT use it for competition or hunting, that may change the recommendations we give?

Are there any specific feature you really WANT as of right now?

How much are you willing to spend on Rifle/Scope package?
 
15 shot 1 hole groups...yeah, just keep shooting til it’s a big ole single hole. It works.

900 is just a scope for a true long range rig, and 900 doesn’t even get you off the budget rack at that. If your talking rifles for shots inside 1000yds you can do it for about a grand. Out to 500yds your looking real hard at savage rifles with mid-grade scopes with the total in the 6-700 range. You could also go with a heavy barrel AR and be in it at 7-800. It’s all in what range you want to shoot at, and how big of a hole you want to make there.
 
Like the other poster said it really depends on what you call "long range"....and IMHO if you are talking much past 500 yards....heck even that the 223 is a tall order....I think I would want something with a little more meat in the bullet. Not saying it can't be done, but with that light bullet you are making it a bigger challenge.

If you are wanting to stay with 223 because of other things you have then I would also add the CZ 527 to your list....I am a huge...HUGE fanboi on this little rifle, and it having a set trigger out of the box is super nice.

My home range is right at 100 yards....perhaps one day I will clear more trees but now on the downhill side of my 50's I really doubt it....but 100 yards I get a golf ball group shooting off a bag over 3 magazines. I really like that gun....and that is not bad for this old man with the shakes.

You said also you wanted to look at a fun 22 plinker....see if you can find yourself a CBC nylon 66....you can still find them pretty inexpensive but their prices are going north like the "real" 66 is going. That gun is not for everyone as it feels just a little "toy-ish" being so light weight....and it being so light is good for us old guys with some strength issues...super fun to shoot, a bit of a pain to take all the way down....but a real cool little rifle.

Just be sure you don't pay Remington money for a CBC...both are great guns, but the Remington will naturally bring more.
 
milemaker13 said:
Time frame? Lets say maybe by next summer so lots of time, no rush. Plenty of stuff to play with til then.
Click to expand...

Well, between now and next summer can be a minor eternity. I'd actually go with a cheap .22 plinker to fill the void between now and then, saving your real $$ for whatever you finally decide on.

In the meantime, if you really want to go cheap but want a fun to play & tinker with, I highly recommend the Model 60 (or if tube mags aren't your thing, the 795)
You won't start to burn through your $$ like you would if it were a 10/22 (yes, another great .22, but it comes complete with an accessory addiction).

But for an ultra cheap fun shoot, I recently got a Mossberg 702 plinkster for about $110 new out of the box. They sometimes have a reputation as being jam-omatics, but mine has run through rounds just fine with the original & aftermarket mags. Again, this would be a great, cheap tinkering/ plinking gun.

For your .223, I have the Savage Trophy 11, but with the synthetic stock. It also comes in a wooden stock (but they seem harder to find) so you wouldn't have to swap it out for a Boyd's or similar. (I think the Trophy 10 w/ a wood stock can handle both .223/5.56, but don't quote me on that). The barrel lengths are only 22", which sounds under what you're looking at w/o a barrel swap. But as is, it's a fantastic rifle.
 
100-300 yards for now... maybe 600 in the years to come. 100 is the longest range i have access to right now and even that is 1.5 hr drive and $30 fee.

I've chosen .223 since I'm already set up to reload .223. And i think I'd rather have the lighter recoil than say 30.06.
I'm ok with a shorter barrel if it will do the job. Also would be ok with swapping it out after a few seasons.
I'd also really like a wood stock. Not a deal breaker in some cases (like a sweet second hand rifle at a great price for example ).

In fact since I'm just starting to look at a rifle to enter this particular facet of shooting I'm open to most options and suggestions. My original thought a few years ago was to look on the used racks at pawn and gun shops up in WI or Iowa.
 
milemaker13 said:
100-300 yards for now... maybe 600 in the years to come. 100 is the longest range i have access to right now and even that is 1.5 hr drive and $30 fee.

I've chosen .223 since I'm already set up to reload .223. And i think I'd rather have the lighter recoil than say 30.06.
I'm ok with a shorter barrel if it will do the job. Also would be ok with swapping it out after a few seasons.
I'd also really like a wood stock. Not a deal breaker in some cases (like a sweet second hand rifle at a great price for example ).

In fact since I'm just starting to look at a rifle to enter this particular facet of shooting I'm open to most options and suggestions. My original thought a few years ago was to look on the used racks at pawn and gun shops up in WI or Iowa.
Click to expand...

With that info, it makes things easier. Savage rifle, don’t worry about the stock at all. Get good metal and you can use whatever stock it has until you decide which Boyd’s stock you want. Boyd’s are nice, and the options are pretty numerous, but are very reasonable for being a decent stock. Not solid walnut, but you can get laminates that look incredible and still shoot well. Look at the options on stocks before buying a rifle though, not all stocks are available for all actions. I would be suprised if there is much available for an axis, but I know there’s plenty for 10 and 110 rifles.
 
As long as that Rem 512 is in decent shape with a good bore, $125 is an absolute steal. If that was around me I'd be leaving work right now to go pick it up! My experience with the Remington 500 series bolt guns from that era is that they will shoot circles around any Model 60 too. It might not qualify as a long range tack-driver, but they are still sweet shooting guns.
 
Ruger 77 and remington 700 in the $700 ballpark, no optic.
The savage 10/110 trophy hunter xp w/ nikon 3-9x40 bdc scope is $585 . Wood stock.

The savage sounds good. Any thoughts on that scope? Many people say buy rifle and optics separate vs packaged together in order to avoid crap optics...
 
milemaker13 said:
Ruger 77 and remington 700 in the $700 ballpark, no optic.
The savage 10/110 trophy hunter xp w/ nikon 3-9x40 bdc scope is $585 . Wood stock.

The savage sounds good. Any thoughts on that scope? Many people say buy rifle and optics separate vs packaged together in order to avoid crap optics...
Click to expand...

That's the exact scope my Savage came packaged with. Ordinarily, I'd agree with buying a better scope separately, as many package scopes are indeed crap. But this combo was what the store had on hand, so I got it.

It's actually a really decent scope, especially if you factor it's cost in the combo as opposed to buying it separately. The rectical is sharp and the optic is clear and bright.
It's been fantastic in the 100-300 yrd outings (that's the limit of my usual firing range I go to lately)
On the occasions I make the long drive out the the longer range, it's still pretty spot on at 5-600yrds, at least within my shooting limitations. But realistically, if I were to start shooting exclusively at that longer distance or beyond, i'd probably opt for a better scope (until I buy said better scope, I don't have a proper basis for comparison). Even in that scenario, this scope would still be a definite hand me down to one of my other rifles.

Quick edit add-on, my Axis II came with a Weaver 3-9x40 scope in that package, and that scope was kind of crap (at least the one I got sure was, I've been told since that my particular scope was probably just defective)
 
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A scope that comes on a gun in a package will be adequate to about 200yds give or take. Beyond that, clarity is often a problem. If you buy a package, use it until your ability exceeds what the optic allows. What I mean by that is that if your shooting tight groups at 100 yds you can usually see those well enough and keep going. If you are shooting 300yds you may need a higher power scope with better clarity to see and know where your hitting.
 
If you actually want to “get into long range shooting,” with intention of shooting 100-300yrds now, and only shooting 600yrds a few years down the road, then buy something meant for 100-300yrds. By “a few years down the road,” you would have burned up the barrel on whatever you buy today, maybe a few times over. Even a “barrel friendly” 308 win will be out of barrel around 3000-4000rnds, it’s pretty easy to eat that up in a few years. My 6creed just ate a barrel in under 700 rounds!

With a top end at 600yrds, there’s really no reason to get anything bigger than 223rem - which will eat up a barrel in 2500-3000rnds for buttons, 4500-5000 for cut barrels. Less for hammer forged factory barrels.

Personally, I would buy a Savage 10 or 12 in 243win, then rebarrel at 1000-1500 rounds for 6mm BR or Dasher. Low recoil, low powder use, flat shooting, high ballistic coefficients, and all of the 100-600yrd happiness you could ever want. The BR and Dasher should go over 3000rnds before they burn out as well.

I do most of my short and midrange practicing with a 223rem, 0-600yrds, and often have it out to 800-1,000yrds.
 
Barrel life depends upon the cartridge used. Higher capacity, smaller bores will burn through barrels much more quickly than larger bores with relatively smaller cases. As I mentioned above, 6 creed or 243win typically lose velocity and groups open up somewhere around 800-1000rnds, with precision fading to abysmal levels by 1500-2000 rounds. A 308win or 223 Rem should make it to 3000rnds before the wheels start coming off. 7mm Rem mag, or worse, 7-300, will typically smoke a throat by 700 rounds, completely toast by 1500.

How the barrel is made also makes a difference. Cut rifled barrels last longer than button rifled barrels (and typically cost proportionately as much more too). My Service Rifles would typically go 3000 rounds for buttons, 4500-5000 for cuts, before the groups became too large for competition. This with high range 223rem loads. They would be losing velocity and opening up a little maybe 500-800 rounds before those marks, but could still shoot tightly enough to not drop too many points.

For the average deer hunter, barrel life doesn’t matter. We don’t shoot that many rounds in a lifetime, we don’t need 1/2moa performance, and we can lose a few hundred feet per second on velocity loss without even noticing on our 100yrd zero, or 250yrd groups. For a long range shooter, when the velocity starts to fall, the data at range changes too frequently. If I lose about 50fps per about 100 rounds, how am I supposed to dial my corrections during a 200 round match? And then what do I do at the next match next weekend? We need our rifles to stay consistent so our DOPE remains relevant - if the speed is changing as the barrel fades past it’s usable life, how do we expect to compete with someone in the prime of their barrel life with rock solid DOPE week to week, stage to stage.

Barrels are like tires. Ammo like gas. Burning gas means you’re burning tires too. A lot slower, but still burning tires. If you don’t drive much, tires last decades. If you drive a light car, it will get more miles before the tires burn out than if you drive a 1ton truck with a camper in the bed and a lot of load on the tires.

Most Service Rifle competitors I knew went through at least one barrel each season. Top PRS precision shooters go through 2-4 barrels each season.

Alternatively, if you only need to hit an IPSC sized target at 400yrds every once in a while, and most of the shooting is run and gun 0-50yrd stuff (aka 3 Gun), a completely shelled 223rem barrel will still shoot well enough to keep playing. When you need to hit the same target at 1300yrds, the expectation changes.
 
Varminterror said:
Barrels are like tires. Ammo like gas. Burning gas means you’re burning tires too. A lot slower, but still burning tires. If you don’t drive much, tires last decades. If you drive a light car, it will get more miles before the tires burn out than if you drive a 1ton truck with a camper in the bed and a lot of load on the tires.
Click to expand...

That's a great analogy!

The point of differing usage is a good one as well. It took 1700+ rounds (I had 17empty amax boxes when we moved last and I tossed them out) to fry my 7mag to the point it wasn't accurate enough for me, which turns out is about 2" at 100yds. My normal range is only a few hundred yards tho.
 
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