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What to do when the rug is pulled out from under you?

Discussion in 'NFA Firearms and Accessories' started by pdsmith505, Jun 4, 2019.

  1. pdsmith505

    pdsmith505 Member

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    As I'm sure that many of you have heard, Virginia had a mass-shooting incident that involved a silencer recently.

    Yes, yes, I know, the silencer didn't help the shooter, every witness interviewed clearly heard gunshots and the police located him based on the sound of his gunshots as well. We get that silencers are not "silencers".

    The problem is that most people don't understand that... and now the VA Gov is proposing to outlaw silencers in the state of VA.

    https://www.wdbj7.com/content/news/...lame5HjhCZQlKK6KMuVTCArCuaXshibJoDz08IFDVUPF0

    The odds of this making it thought the VA legislature hang on one or two (R) votes, but are none the less low. Still, I have started thinking about what to do with my cans if this goes through.

    Luckily, all my NFA stuff is on a trust. I figure I can just add my old man to the list of responsible persons and take them to NM if the ban goes through. I already have a yearly 5320.20 that I keep active for that location.

    Anyone see a problem with that contingency?
     
  2. AlexanderA
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    AlexanderA Member

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    We first have to learn whether the so-called "silencer" used was legal or not. If it was not legal, the argument to be used before the Virginia legislature would be that this was already a federal felony, and that a Virginia ban would be redundant.

    If it was legal, that means that the shooter applied for it months and months ago, and was found to be squeaky clean. The fact that one upstanding citizen went rogue with his can is not a basis for general legislation.

    And if, in spite of all this, there is a state ban, most likely existing suppressors would be grandfathered.

    Only if they are not grandfathered would you have to consider moving them out of the state.
     
  3. Jeb Stuart

    Jeb Stuart Member

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    Are you familiar with the Virginia Gov.? The poor soul has been hiding in the cracks like a scared cock Roach, And the most hilarious thing about this is the fact that the one's wanting to lynch him are his own voters that put him into office. Seems the Good Doctor was not politically correct back in College. No matter that he promised more freebies to them from the Government than a drunk giving out Holloween candy. Yep, all the free candy by the handful got him elected by the Blue Masses that are taking over Good Ole Virginia. The former Red, state that was once a center of pride, respected hard work, the American Flag, the Police etc. is now going to hell in a basket.
    So what is the course now for the Good Doctor. Is it a goner??
    What a blessing in disguise that came his way. A deadly shooting, one which opened the doors again for the Doc. Hearing the good news, he ran faster than a cock Roach when the lights are turndc on and right to the nearest pulpit. The big diversion to move the Blue's away from his lynching to on his side again with the Preaching of the Good Ole Gun Control. Music to the sing the Blue's to the Blue.
    And even though the Doc, has no idea of what a suppressor is, he knows enough to just call it EVIL. Just like those Evil Extended Clips. The Doc is back in the saddle again. More preaching against evil and more giveaways. Just the right prescription that his followers love to listen to.
     
    NIGHTLORD40K likes this.
  4. MachIVshooter

    MachIVshooter Member

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    Before you worry about what to do after a ban, do everything you can to head it off and prevent it becoming law in the first place. Hearts and minds of constituents, one at a time.

    I typed this up and posted it to my FB page for friends and followers to use in explaining/convincing/debating. Perhaps it's prove useful to you in some capacity as well:

    In light of the recent events, I felt that it might be helpful for some of you who are pro-2A but lacking much experience or knowledge in the realm of suppressors (“silencers”) to go into the inevitable debates armed with the facts from someone who not only uses them, but manufactures & repairs them, and who owns one of the very expensive impulse sound meters needed to accurately measure high level impulse noises.

    Hollywood has created a great deal of misconception around firearms in general, and especially the mystical “silencer”, portraying them as an assassin’s tool, a small cylinder that magically attaches to the user’s weapon and brings the sound of a gunshot down to a whisper. The reality of firearm suppressors is very different.

    1, Not all firearms can accept them. In point of fact, the extreme majority cannot without modification, and some not at all.

    2, The pill bottle sized suppressors represented by props in movies do exist, but they are very specialized and not very effective. Actual, effective suppressors range from “good sized” to downright big, most centerfire models being 1.375”-1.75” in diameter and 7”-10” long. Rimfire (.22 Long rifle) suppressors are the smallest “common” ones, generally about 1” in diameter and 5”-6” long.

    3, Suppressors can significantly affect your firearm, both in terms of reliability and accuracy. This part deserves more explanation, but suffice it to say that simply putting a suppressor on and having your firearm both run reliably AND shoot to exactly the same point of aim would be incredible luck. Most need adjustments.

    4, A suppressed gunshot is still quite loud, especially any round larger than .22 rimfire. With a few exceptions using very specific hosts and ammunition, suppressed gunshots will typically run in the range of 125-145 decibels. For those who are not especially familiar with this logarithmic scale, a chain saw or jackhammer is going to produce 110-120 decibels (dB) at a distance of 1 meter. Top fuel dragsters produce noise in the 145 dB range. Most people will find levels over 125-130 uncomfortable, and painful above 135-140, depending on frequency. Instant hearing damage occurs at 140 dB.

    5, Even real-world videos of suppressors being used do not represent well the in-person experience. Noise-leveling microphones, limitations of software and the inability of most speakers/sound systems to reproduce certain sounds accurately are just some of the reasons for this.

    6, supersonic bullets will have a loud “sonic crack” no matter what suppressor you use. The bigger the bullet, the louder the crack. It’s the same phenomena as the sonic boom when an aircraft goes supersonic, just on a much smaller scale, and without the transonic variables.

    If people are curious about the dB level of various noises, Google is your friend. Having already given a couple examples above, we’re going to focus on gunshots.

    Unsuppressed firearms, except for long barreled .22 rimfires, are all above 140 dB. A .22 Pistol is around 152 dB. A 9mm is about 160 dB, .357 Magnum revolver 165 dB, and some of the bigger magnum hunting rifles can even exceed 170 dB. Combined with the overpressure of the larger powder charges, some of the latter can actually rupture eardrums. Any exposure to unsuppressed gunshots is very bad for the ears, even those long barreled .22s putting down high 130s.

    Suppressors, good ones, can drop the sound pressure level by as much as 30-32 decibels, which is slightly better than most run-of-the-mill earmuffs. For many firearms, that will put them in the realm of technically hearing safe, although prolonged firing sessions will still damage your ears, especially indoors.

    Some examples of suppressed gunshot sound pressure levels using premium suppressors:

    .22 Long Rifle subsonic from a rifle: 113-117 dB
    .22 Long rifle subsonic from a pistol: 119-125 dB
    .22 LR Supersonic from a pistol: 125-130 dB
    9mm Subsonic from a pistol: 123-128 dB
    9mm Supersonic from a pistol: 127-135 dB
    9mm from a blowback carbine: 130-140 dB
    .45 ACP from a pistol: 132-138 dB
    .45 ACP from a blowback carbine: 138-145 dB
    10mm Auto from a pistol: 137-142 dB
    .223 from a bolt action rifle: 130-133 dB
    .223 from an AR: 137-145 dB
    .308 from a bolt action: 133-138 dB
    .308 from a semi-auto rifle: 140-150 dB
    .300 Winchester Magnum from a bolt action: 135-140 dB

    Now, an impulse noise is definitely different from a constant sound, which is why OSHA sets the exposure limits based on time; so many dB for X minutes or hours. A 125 dB suppressed gunshot is not going to be as offensive to your ears as a 125 dB siren. But they are equally audible.

    Now, your debate opponents may ask then why bother? What’s the point if it’s still that loud? While the answer should be obvious, it may need to be explained.

    -For hunting, when only a shot or two will be fired, a good suppressor negates the need for uncomfortable and handicapping hearing protection.

    -For recreational use, a suppressor takes the protective equipment requirement from plugs AND muffs to just one or the other, leaving you better able to hear lower level sounds, like a range safety officer saying “cease fire!”

    -A suppressor lowers the level to where people nearby but still a few yards away are safe even without hearing protection of any kind ; decibels drop by 6 for every doubling of distance (140 at 3 feet is 134 at 6 feet, 128 at 12 feet, 116 at 48 feet, etc.)

    -A suppressor virtually eliminates muzzle blast, helping not only the shooter better focus (especially new shooters), but also making things much more pleasant for other people on the firing line, and for nearby residents in the case of ranges near residential areas. The shots can still be heard for quite some distance, but it is analogous to living near a freeway vs. living next to a dragstrip.

    Suppressors definitively reduce the volume of a gunshot, and are very useful tools for shooters & sportsmen, but they are a far cry from the Hollywood depiction. People getting their first experience with suppressors who have had their expectations shaped by TV & movies are universally surprised at how loud suppressed guns still are, and there’s simply no mistaking the distinct sound of a gunshot, suppressed or not.
     
    Theohazard, Lateck, Gtscotty and 2 others like this.
  5. dh1633pm

    dh1633pm Member

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    I feel for you in VA. Too much inaccuracies in TV presentations of suppressors. They are already illegal in NY. I look at it as the governor taking advantage of tragedy to advance a political goal. Ban anything firearm related whenever possible by taking advantage of anything.
     
    NIGHTLORD40K likes this.
  6. pdsmith505

    pdsmith505 Member

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    Like I said, it's not likely such legislation would make it through the VA legislature... but we've already seen what actions by one otherwise law abiding citizen can do for bumpstocks, so I wouldn't put it past lawmakers to go high and right on silencers either.

    Really my question is purely hypothetical at this point: If the knee-jerk legislation that Northam is calling for is passed, and has worst-case language, does adding a responsible person in another state to the NFA trust so the cans can be evacuated away from the laws pass the sniff test?

    Appreciate the input. I think the risk of this kind of law in VA is probably most accute in the near term as a knee-jerk reaction. By the time elections roll around they will be back to arguing over abortions and expanding medicaid, and the constituency in my part of VA is either for guns or against them. I doubt either side would be persuaded on the nuances of silencers.

    The flip side is, if the knee-jerk reaction doesn't make it through, I'll be moving to the next place before any legislation can go into effect, and the hypothetical would be moot (for me at least) anyways.
     
    CaptHank likes this.
  7. kenboyles72

    kenboyles72 Member

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    Like I said in another forum, first it was the Vegas shooting and we lost bump stocks. Now the Virginia shooting, which will most likely lean towards further restricting/banning suppressors. Many states are looking at nullifying the regulation of suppressors and this happens. I don't think it's a coincidence.

    BTW, has anyone seen pics of the so called suppressor that was allegedly used? I haven't seen any. I know there is speculation that maybe it was actually a muzzle brake, don't know until there is actual proof.
     
  8. AlexanderA
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    AlexanderA Member

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    That could be done. Or in my case, I could move back to Texas where I grew up. But wherever you move is not going to be permanently exempt from creeping antigunism.
     
  9. MachIVshooter

    MachIVshooter Member

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    You don't have to make them pro, just work toward less anti. That way when the pollsters start calling around looking to put people into boxes of for/against/indifferent, the results of those polls (legitimate ones), which politicians do pay attention to, are less slanted against us.

    My entire extended family are East coast liberals, and even they were able to be brought around to understand that suppressors are A) nothing like they'd come to believe and B) have a legitimate, practical purpose. One of my uncles with his wife and son came out a couple years ago, and I demonstrated them on handguns and rifles. "crap, that's still really loud! You can't fire a shot undetected with those." is a paraphrase of their collective sentiment. Having it explained, and especially witnessing the real deal in person made them understand why we like them, and why they're not useful in the nefarious ways depicted on-screen.
     
  10. AlexanderA
    • Contributing Member

    AlexanderA Member

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    No, I don't think that any detailed information about the shooter's guns has been released. Northam is just taking a "shot in the dark," so to speak. But if a suppressor ban is debated in the legislature, one side effect is that the information will be forced to be made public.
     
  11. pdsmith505

    pdsmith505 Member

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    I live in the Tidewater region, which includes VB. If the police out here said a can was used, it was. Just my take watching the local news as it happened.
     
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