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What Training With Your EDC Blades?

Discussion in 'Non-Firearm Weapons' started by Cosmoline, Jul 19, 2013.

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  1. Cosmoline

    Cosmoline Member

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    I see a lot more threads here about various carry knives than training threads. In fact I got to wondering what training, if any, most of us actually have when it comes to blades. I've been amazed how complicated and difficult sword fighting is, and I can only imagine fighting with a small blade is if anything more complex to master. Yet I come up blank when I try to think of ever even hearing about knife fighting (as opposed to knife disarming) methods being taught.

    Anyone know of some or have training? Or is the idea to just jab with the pointy end ;-)
     
  2. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

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    Cosmo,

    We had a thread on this a few years ago and "the usual suspects" were the ones that responded while the majority of folks had none or thought watching a video was training.

    You should already know that FMA martial arts schools teach Eskrima/Arnis/****.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2013
  3. Sam Cade

    Sam Cade Member

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    I'll bite.

    I've got some A.C and had a few classes of wildly varying utility.

    I try to spar using (chalked) blunts with similarly minded folks whenever possible.
     
  4. JShirley

    JShirley Administrator Staff Member

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    I've had a decent bit of knife training in the dojo. I think it's important to combine dojo training with swinging a real, live blade- they'll teach you things, if you listen.

    I think what works best:

    dojo training with trainers;
    striking with blunt metal, wood or synthetic training blades against appropriate targets;
    cutting with live blades.

    I'd say the percentage of each should be about 30% dojo, 50% training blade striking, 20% live blade. You *can* do more cutting with live blades, but it helps to already have a lot of control, and good body mechanics first.

    **Control and not over-extending are probably the two most important things to remember** with large blades.

    Small blades are a bit different, in that you're not likely to kill yourself during solo training by over-extending, but it's always important to train in a way that won't open you up to attack or counter-attack.

    John
     
  5. newfalguy101

    newfalguy101 Member

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    My "EDC" is a tool for opening boxes and for cutting what needs cut, no training other than the 30ish years of experience
     
  6. Mikhail Weiss

    Mikhail Weiss Member

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    I learned to fence foil, saber, and épée when I was in college, and did a little sword-and-dagger and cloak-and-dagger work, too.

    Right about then I also learned a bit of knife defense while studying karate, but this was almost entirely scenario-based defensive work of the, “a guy attacks you like this, so you do that,” variety, which is to say it was very limited.

    Then I studied Jeet Kun Do and Filipino martial arts like ****/Escrima/ Arnis, Silat, and found it loads of fun, plus it provided a better system-based approach to defense against/with knives than the karate's scenario-based defenses had provided.

    Nowadays, I occasionally run through drills with my brother, but mostly work through drills and patterns with various pocketknives for fun.
     
  7. MErl

    MErl Member

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    I carry a knife as a useful tool to cut stuff not so much as a weapon. It takes alot more training time to be effective with a knife than a gun so I carry a gun as a last ditch weapon.

    Thinking back, I recall an after hours meeting with a client. A get to know them and enjoy yourself thing. He had found a trainer and was training in the use of European longsword. He likened it to Asian martial arts but they were (nearly) lost as useless.
     
  8. rcmodel

    rcmodel Member in memoriam

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    My training is.

    If it sticks out and try's to grab me, or already has a hold of me??

    I try to cut it off.
    Or at least sever the tendons & arteries inside it.

    Never had to try it out in the last 69 years.

    But I bet it would make them let go long enough for me to cripple away.

    rc
     
  9. 9mmepiphany

    9mmepiphany Moderator

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    For a small knife. I went with Michael Janich's MBC, whichc blends elements of Escrima, Arnis, and Silat. This blended very well with the movement techniques of Bagua and the power/grounding of Tai Chi.

    The upside is that MBC is based on simpe techniques which don't require the long progression in more traidtional martial arts. The downside is that he usually teaches in a 2-day seminar...unless you form/find a local group to practice with, you're on your own.

    It is very important that would practice with both a training blade and a live blade...no mater how close the balance between them is, you're body will know and start taking shortcuts
     
  10. JimStC

    JimStC Member

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    I have been training in Escrima/****/Arnis for just at a year. Knife fighting is counter intuitive to say the least. Without training, a person is ill advised to pull their pocket knife in a self defense scenario unless as a last resort. It is each of our responsibility to master the weapons we carry to defend ourselves. Unfortunately it is not uncommon to rely on the weapon and not the training. Can be a fatal mistake....

    Jim
     
  11. JShirley

    JShirley Administrator Staff Member

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    I'd say it's best to just think of it as fighting, with or without any tool. It's not a "knife fight": it's a fight where you happen to have a knife.

    No matter how you use it, by definition, using a knife defensively is lethal force. This is only justifiable to prevent death or serious injury.

    John
     
  12. conw

    conw Member

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    Edged Weapons Overview also known as EWO from Southnarc is excellent, which isn't surprising if you read much about the quality of his coursework in general.

    I like how JShirley put it. And this is exactly how the course is taught: a blade or similar weapon in play during a fight doesn't change the fact that it's a fight. The striking and grappling aspects are taught VERY effectively. The blade-work layers into that. Using a knife isn't all that technical per se but fighting sure is. Give a good athletic fighter a knife and that's much more scary than some kind of "knife fighter."

    Anyway, as a result of the conceptual underpinnings, students leave with a good defensive capability (literal defensive skills, preservation of mobility and consciousness during a fight) and some pretty nasty and effective, but simple, blade skills.

    The course also gives a road map for post-course student improvement: basic fighting skill work trained over time with blade skills up close as well as ranged integrated in a way that allows two-for-one training in terms of skills.
     
  13. Gordon

    Gordon Member

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  14. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

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    Yep, I'll endorse SouthNarc's course as well.
     
  15. tomrkba

    tomrkba Member

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    I trained with Tom Sotis using his AMOK! system. NOK trainers are very safe and one learns the techniques without getting injured. My only gripe with the classes is that it is a brain dump for the topic. There are so many techniques that it is easy to get lost since the students have not mastered them.

    What I like is that Sotis blends a bunch of martial styles and abstracts out the common elements. His "Four Themes" DVD is great because it quantifies all the possible combinations for hand and foot movements. The AMOK! system builds upon this with a very large variety of attack and defense moves with any length weapon. The focus is upon empty hand, knife, and stick but the system translates out to quarterstaff and spear.

    I did a class with Larry Lindenman that focused upon just a few foundation moves. People were reacting correctly by the second half of the second day. It was a great supplement to the AMOK! classes.

    Sotis talks about training with blunt and live blades. It takes a very high level of profiency and a huge level of trust to train with blunt blades. It takes even more to train with live blades. I find the NOK Trainers to be sufficiently realistic for training purposes.

    You would be amazed how many martial arts masters cannot handle the standard jailhouse felon sewing machine technique.* He trained with several for years and, at the end of the training, challenges them to free sparring. He "destroyed" several. The reason is that they never thought anyone would do anything so stupid. It does not occur to the inmate doing the shanking that there are complicated martial arts for knife fighting.

    I also endorse Craig Douglas/SouthNarc's courses. Everyone who carries a gun should take ECQC.

    * Marc Denny of Dog Brothers Martial Arts developed "the dog catcher" technique to counter it. It works so long as the defender is physically fit and knows how to follow-up. The knife will eventually get through if the defender does not counterattack.
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2013
  16. sidheshooter

    sidheshooter Member

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    I will vouch for Janich's MBC courses as well; multiple times for me. I am also a graduate of Erik Remmen's original clip it course, making me one of the guys out there to have studied in both spyderco sponsored courses. I've got Bram Frank coming up in a month or so here as well.

    There are others-as well as a dan ranking in traditional Okinawan fare, but I am most enthusiastic about recommending the Janich POI for "EDC" blades (unless your EDC is a bolo, machete or parang).

    JMO.
     
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