What type of non-lethal force can you use in defense of property?

[GuyWithQuestions]

I know in the state I live in, the state statute says that you can't use deadly force to protect property, but you can use non-deadly force if you reasonably believe that it's necessary to protect property.

I'm curious because this one guy asked me if I thought my neighbor would mind if he trimmed some of his bushes. The bushes are overhanging the sidewalk a little (about 1/4 of the way over, but still very passable). The neighbor happens to be a relative of mine. I told the guy that he should ask the neighbor (my relative) before doing anything. I told him that it's one thing if bushes or a tree are overhanging onto someone else's yard, but when it's on the neighbor's property, that's different. The guy said, "You're legally supposed to maintain your property and since it's covering a little bit of the sidewalk, I can cut it." I told him that he has to ask first.

This morning I walked outside, and guess what I saw? Bushes along the side of the sidewalk that were cut, flat on the side that they were cut, and an ugly job. That made me upset. I also know the guy didn't get permission because my relative has not been around in the last day.

So I was wondering (if I ever happen to be in the situation) what type of non-deadly legal force can you use to protect your own yard/property from being damaged if you were to walk outside, see someone modifying your yard, you ask them to stop, and they don't? If they're just on your property not causing any harm, it would probably be best to call the police and tell them you have a trespasser that won't leave. However, if they're causing damage, what can you do to stop it, legally?

 

[scythefwd]

beanbags out of a 203? Dogs, pepper spray, tazer (well, not generally considered lethal), electrifide stream of saleen. Uhh... Im about out of suggestions now

 

[Byron Quick]

If he only cuts bushes in line with the sidewalk...it's the city's property and your relative has been negligent in keeping his shrubbery pruned in keeping with city ordinance.

I, personally, wouldn't want the be in the position of defending myself against assault charges when I use any degree of force against someone standing on the sidewalk and pruning my bushes that were overgrowing the sidewalk in violation of an ordinance. The guy pruning is not trespassing as he's standing on public property and I would be surprised if I retained title in shrubbery that had intruded over the city's easement. Between the two, I think the homeowner would have a hard row to hoe while defending against assault charges.

 

[Loosedhorse]

A camcorder and a cellphone

Catch someone on your property damaging said property, start filming and ask him to stop and leave. If he doesn't, call 911, wait and keep filming.

It's just property. I know it's maddening, but why do you want to invite an assault charge by ejecting someone from your property? Call the folks in blue--that's why they're there: use of non-emergency force is pretty much their territory in a civilized (that is, run by lawyers) society.

Police arrive. Show them the tape, say you want to swear out a complaint for destruction of private property and criminal trespass. You've got him, and once he realizes you've got him, he'll want to make restitution real fast.

All I am saying, is give peace a chance.

If before the police arrive, he gets in your face, you are allowed to meet his force with equal force, are never required to retreat unless you can do so in absolute safety, and in some states don't have to retreat at all on you property.

(PS: Deadly force can be used to prevent arson to a dwelling).

IANAL

 

[Rifleman 173]

Laws vary from state to state on what is and is not proper use of force and even to the degree of force that one can use. Check with your local attorneys for proper definitions as to what is right or wrong.

 

[Sunray]

"...this one guy asked me if...the neighbor (my relative)..." GuyWithQuestions, you have no legal right to say or do anything. It's not your property. Use any force to defend a bush you don't own and you're posterior will be grass.
"...overhanging onto someone else's yard..." My ma always said that. Until the guy behind cut some apple tree branches hanging low enough to get in the way of him cutting his grass. Mom was livid. Tells me her tale of woe, to which I replied, "For years, you said if it hangs over the fence it could be cut." Grumbling ensued.
My brother showed up about an hour later and Mom whined to him about it. With no word from me, he says,"You always said if it hangs over the fence..." I laughed so hard it still hurts.

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

Tangent, but I would love to have one of those 37mm M203 lookalikes, and load it with a beanbag or Blunt/OC powder round. Put that on my AR for home invaders.

 

[mtruette]

Easy Does It

In the state of Florida you would not be justified in the use of force of any kind in this situation. This may be a criminal charge of criminal mischief and possibly a civil remedy by filing a law suit for damages. Photos and/or video of the action would go a long way in collecting damages. The person is not trespassing as long as he is standing on city or state property, however, it is not his responsibility to cut the limbs. He should have contacted the local government that is in charge of the sidewalk and filed a complaint.

As a Deputy Sheriff I have seen a lot of people take the law in their own hand and become the defendant. Don't do it and take it easy. I also know it is nerve racking to deal with some not so considerate people. Easy Does It.:banghead:

 

[Marty Hayes]

#1, call the cops.

#2, learn your own state's laws on use of force, both deadly and non-deadly force.

#3 make sure you have a good relationship with a local attorney, who can clarify the rules for you where you live.

 

[tigre]

If he only cuts bushes in line with the sidewalk...it's the city's property and your relative has been negligent in keeping his shrubbery pruned in keeping with city ordinance.

I, personally, wouldn't want the be in the position of defending myself against assault charges when I use any degree of force against someone standing on the sidewalk and pruning my bushes that were overgrowing the sidewalk in violation of an ordinance. The guy pruning is not trespassing as he's standing on public property and I would be surprised if I retained title in shrubbery that had intruded over the city's easement. Between the two, I think the homeowner would have a hard row to hoe while defending against assault charges.

+1

This isn't a case of defense of property, it's a case of a negligent homeowner contemplating assault over some shrubs. Granted, there were probably better ways for the guy to go about getting the shrubs cleared from the sidewalk (where they shouldn't be), but I can't believe anyone would think about using force against someone over something like this.

 

[brickeyee]

He has no right to perform maintenance on a city easement.

He should have complained to the city, who would either ask that they be trimmed, or trim them (and possibly bill for the cost).

Video and 911.

 

[GuyWithQuestions]

Isn't it illegal for the guy to cut the bushes?

Thanks for all of your answers so far, this is just a learning experience for me.

It sounds like some of you are saying that it would be illegal for him to cut the bushes, but illegal for a homeowner to physically stop him?

Another question I have: I went to answers.yahoo.com and asked if it would be legal for this guy to cut the bushes without the homeowners permission. I explained how the bushes were overhanging the sidewalk just a little. These were some responses from law enforcement officers. Please tell me if you agree/disagree with them:

That would be damage to property, and possibly trespass.

He could call the city, they probably have an ordinance prohibiting obstructing the sidewalk, so they would order him to trim them himself.

Source(s):
17 years law enforcement

Trooper is correct, but failed to mention one thing. If anyone trim or modify his bushes without his permission, he could successfully win a small claims suit against the person making the modifications, especially if the person must trespass to do it.

Source(s):
25 Years in Law Enforcement

You only have the right to trim hedges or trees that are over hanging onto YOUR property. Sounds like a big struggle of egos here.

This guy has too much time on his hands if he's worried about someone else's landscaping. "Slightly" overhanging the sidewalk? As long as the sidewalk is still passable, then who cares? Tell this guy to forget it, unless the plants are so overgrown that you can no longer use the sidewalk for its intended purpose.

I mean, the guy who did the cutting without permission happens to have a tree branch overhanging the sidewalk slightly. If I were to go over to his yard with a chain saw, would that be anymore legal? Can you really just go over to someone's plants and start trimming them if they're not overhanging onto your property?

 

[GuyWithQuestions]

When can you use force to defend property?

I went to the Utah code from their .gov website, 76-2-406 says:

Force in defense of property.
A person is justified in using force, other than deadly force, against another when and to the extent that he reasonably believes that force is necessary to prevent or terminate criminal interference with real property or personal property:
(1) Lawfully in his possession; or
(2) Lawfully in the possession of a member of his immediate family; or
(3) Belonging to a person whose property he has a legal duty to protect.

It says no deadly force, so isn't it talking about something different than protecting yourself when you're in danger?

This appears to be very different than protecting your home from invasion or felony attack, because another code addresses that, 76-2-405:

Force in defense of habitation.
(1) A person is justified in using force against another when and to the extent that he reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent or terminate the other's unlawful entry into or attack upon his habitation; however, he is justified in the use of force which is intended or likely to cause death or serious bodily injury only if:
(a) the entry is made or attempted in a violent and tumultuous manner, surreptitiously, or by stealth, and he reasonably believes that the entry is attempted or made for the purpose of assaulting or offering personal violence to any person, dwelling, or being in the habitation and he reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent the assault or offer of personal violence; or
(b) he reasonably believes that the entry is made or attempted for the purpose of committing a felony in the habitation and that the force is necessary to prevent the commission of the felony.
(2) The person using force or deadly force in defense of habitation is presumed for the purpose of both civil and criminal cases to have acted reasonably and had a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or serious bodily injury if the entry or attempted entry is unlawful and is made or attempted by use of force, or in a violent and tumultuous manner, or surreptitiously or by stealth, or for the purpose of committing a felony.

 

[slow944]

Guy what is wrong with trimming the bushes back from the public sidewalk as long as he doesn't trespass onto your relatives property?? If it would have been me I'd have called code enforcement and reported the overgrown bushes to them and let them deal with your relative by either haveing them trimmed and sending him the bill for the service or given him a citation and made him trim the bushes. If you live in a city they can own upto 10' of right of way or easment to put in sewers or utility poles or other city services. Maybe the guy that trimmed the bushes thought he was doing your relative a favor.

 

[GuyWithQuestions]

Guy what is wrong with trimming the bushes back from the public sidewalk as long as he doesn't trespass onto your relatives property??

I'll go take a picture of the bushes. He cut most of it, but left a part of it. Just looking at it, it obviously wasn't infringing on someone's way through. This guy who did the trimming has a tree on his property that has a branch that comes down low enough to make the leaves scrape the top of your head when you walk through. Is his tree really a reasonable problem? Can I legally go over to his place with a chain saw and cut that tree branch off? What would the police do if I did that?

If you were me, would you call the police about his tree branch that has leaves that scrape the top of your head as you walk through?

 

[GuyWithQuestions]

"...overhanging onto someone else's yard..." My ma always said that. Until the guy behind cut some apple tree branches hanging low enough to get in the way of him cutting his grass. Mom was livid. Tells me her tale of woe, to which I replied, "For years, you said if it hangs over the fence it could be cut." Grumbling ensued.

The difference is it wasn't overhanging onto another's yard. I told him that it's one thing if it was.

Actually, that does give me an idea. The guy who trimmed those bushes, one of his immediate neighbors has a really nice looking and big pine tree that's overhanging his yard. About 1/3 of the pine tree is actually overhanging into his yard. If I go over their and point out to him that the pine tree is overhanging the property line over his yard and it would be completely legal to cut it straight up, he may just do it. His other neighbor probably would become enemies with him if he noticed that his nice looking pine tree is almost cut clean in half (all the way up and down). The guy who trimmed those bushes probably wouldn't have the common sense to know what the neighbor would then think, either.

Well, anyway, back to the subject of strategies of how to appropriately respond when people make modifications on property.

 

[Mp7]

...if that´s a problem, then all involved seem to have mental problem.

use words.

Then it is for all to decide wether neighborhood-war
is something u want just because of a bush/tree......

 

[BADUNAME37]

Call POLICE

Whenever possible.

 

[bigdog21]

In the state of Florida you would not be justified in the use of force of any kind in this situation. This may be a criminal charge of criminal mischief and possibly a civil remedy by filing a law suit for damages. Photos and/or video of the action would go a long way in collecting damages. The person is not trespassing as long as he is standing on city or state property, however, it is not his responsibility to cut the limbs. He should have contacted the local government that is in charge of the sidewalk and filed a complaint.

As a Deputy Sheriff I have seen a lot of people take the law in their own hand and become the defendant. Don't do it and take it easy. I also know it is nerve racking to deal with some not so considerate people. Easy Does It

Brought up on charges for what?

776.031 Use of force in defense of others.--A person is justified in the use of force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to prevent or terminate the other's trespass on, or other tortious or criminal interference with, either real property other than a dwelling or personal property, lawfully in his or her possession or in the possession of another who is a member of his or her immediate family or household or of a person whose property he or she has a legal duty to protect. However, the person is justified in the use of deadly force only if he or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony. A person does not have a duty to retreat if the person is in a place where he or she has a right to be.

776.032 Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force.--

(1) A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force, unless the person against whom force was used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who was acting in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person was a law enforcement officer. As used in this subsection, the term "criminal prosecution" includes arresting, detaining in custody, and charging or prosecuting the defendant.

(2) A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use of force as described in subsection (1), but the agency may not arrest the person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful.

(3) The court shall award reasonable attorney's fees, court costs, compensation for loss of income, and all expenses incurred by the defendant in defense of any civil action brought by a plaintiff if the court finds that the defendant is immune from prosecution as provided in subsection (1).

 

[KBintheSLC]

If he only cuts bushes in line with the sidewalk...it's the city's property and your relative has been negligent in keeping his shrubbery pruned in keeping with city ordinance.

This is true. The sidewalk is not private property. If you use force against the guy, it is most likely going to get you nailed for assault. Tell your relative to trim his shrubbery, and move on.

To answer your question about non-lethal force, you can pretty much use any means necessary as long as it does not kill or have the capacity to kill the perp.

I use my air rifle with only 2 or 3 pumps from the 3rd story window for yard predators. I aim for the lower body. It wont penetrate enough to hit vitals or arteries, but will punch through the clothes and skin and sting like heck. It sends them running... funny.

 

[bobbarker]

Several people have mentioned the bean bag guns, and one mentioned tasers, OC/pepper spray, etc., and mentioned them in a "Non-Lethal" capacity. Note, that everything mentioned is "Less Lethal." That could make a VERY big difference if any of those aforementioned items were used in a situation where a person was only allowed to use non lethal force. Just my two cents.

 

[scottgun]

I'm going out on a limb here, but...

Why would you even consider using any type of force against a neighbor who is on the sidewalk trimming the bushes? Maybe talk to him first. :banghead: