What was the appeal of the .38 S&W cartridge?

[ThomasT]

The 38S&W was a serviceable round for its day. And if used in a more modern gun can be turned up a little in the power dept. I don't have one but I would like to have one. I have seen a few threads were some have mentioned that modern revolver rounds have way more case than is needed for the powder charge used. Thats because some were carry overs from the black powder era. A 38 Special case is a good point. The case could be shortened by almost half and still give standard 38 bullet speeds. And do it with a smaller gun with a shorter cylinder.

The 38 S&W is already short and can be loaded well past where its normally loaded now. Except for all the old, weak guns it might find its way into. So for that reason its stays loaded to turn of the last century pressures. That was almost done 20 years ago when the 9mm Federal came out. A modern rimmed 38 S&W for a modern built gun. That was until someone figured out it would chamber in all the really old guns and would be a liability. But they had the right idea. And I guess that explains the popularity of the 9mm revolvers. Now if someone would build a gun around the 9mm round with a shorter cylinder and more compact frame size like the "I" frame and make it from the tough modern steels that are now available. What a pocket gun that would be.

 

[kell]

Not sure what or even if there was a great appeal for the 38 S&W cartridge when it was new but for me personally it's all about short and fat cartridges and top break revolvers.
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I'd sure like to see more pictures of that beauty.

 

[TTv2]

Body panel steel in cars was thicker back when the .38Super was introduced. As nearly as I can tell, it was nearly a third thicker.

Way more than that. IIRC, the sheet metal was nearly 1/8", but now it's under 1/16"

 

[TTv2]

The 38S&W was a serviceable round for its day. And if used in a more modern gun can be turned up a little in the power dept. I don't have one but I would like to have one. I have seen a few threads were some have mentioned that modern revolver rounds have way more case than is needed for the powder charge used. Thats because some were carry overs from the black powder era. A 38 Special case is a good point. The case could be shortened by almost have and still give standard 38 bullet speeds. And do it with a smaller gun with a shorter cylinder.

The 38 S&W is already short and can be loaded well past where its normally loaded now. Except for all the old, weak guns it might find its way into. So for that reason its stays loaded to turn of the last century pressures. That was almost done 20 years ago when the 9mm Federal came out. A modern rimmed 38 S&W for a modern built gun. That was until someone figured out it would chamber in all the really old guns and would be a liability. But they had the right idea. And I guess that explains the popularity of the 9mm revolvers. Now if someone would build a gun around the 9mm round with a shorter cylinder and more compact frame size like the "I" frame and make it from the tough modern steels that are now available. What a pocket gun that would be.

Liability wasn't the reason 9mm Federal never took off, but if someone is stupid enough to buy 9mm Federal and load it into a .38 S&W, they get what they deserve. At some point Darwin's theory has to be allowed to prove it is fact.

Anyway, I'm definitely a fan of the 9mm Federal concept and of offering rimmed versions of rimless pistol calibers so revolvers would have the option of using either a moon clip of the rimless ammo or single loaded rimmed ammo. I've been proposing this idea of taking 10mm Magnum and adding a rim to it so it could essentially be a .41 Magnum, but one that could shoot the shorter .40 and 10mm Auto in a moon clip, but hey, I wouldn't be opposed to rimmed versions of those as well.

BTW, I'm really tired of full moon clips, where are the 3 round half or 2 round moon clips that carry flatter?

 

[TTv2]

Don't mean to go too off topic here, but how would .38 S&W do in a top break if loaded with a 148gr wadcutter? Like, compared to .38 Spl.

Obviously wouldn't load it flush with the case mouth, I'd have the bullet sticking out far enough to get a charge of powder in the case. I'm figuring in a 2 or 3 inch barrel, the velocity for even .38+P doesn't guarantee expansion, but the fast reload of a top break wouldn't be too bad.

 

[RON in PA]

TTv2: I have loaded the .38 S&W with 148 grain HBWC bullets. Because the bases expand the difference in bullet diameter (.357 versus .362 bore) is overcome. This has worked in a Webley mark IV and an Enfield.

 

[TTv2]

TTv2: I have loaded the .38 S&W with 148 grain HBWC bullets. Because the bases expand the difference in bullet diameter (.357 versus .362 bore) is overcome. This has worked in a Webley mark IV and an Enfield.

PM me your powder, charge, and OAL.

Also, have you ever tried the Berry's copper plated HBWC?

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Way more than that. IIRC, the sheet metal was nearly 1/8", but now it's under 1/16"

Who still makes a steel bodied passenger vehicle? Last time I looked they were all plastic or aluminum

 

[ThomasT]

Liability wasn't the reason 9mm Federal never took off, but if someone is stupid enough to buy 9mm Federal and load it into a .38 S&W, they get what they deserve. At some point Darwin's theory has to be allowed to prove it is fact.

Anyway, I'm definitely a fan of the 9mm Federal concept and of offering rimmed versions of rimless pistol calibers so revolvers would have the option of using either a moon clip of the rimless ammo or single loaded rimmed ammo. I've been proposing this idea of taking 10mm Magnum and adding a rim to it so it could essentially be a .41 Magnum, but one that could shoot the shorter .40 and 10mm Auto in a moon clip, but hey, I wouldn't be opposed to rimmed versions of those as well.

BTW, I'm really tired of full moon clips, where are the 3 round half or 2 round moon clips that carry flatter?

TTv2 I have thought the same thing for many years. Why don't they add a rim to the 10mm/40S&W and get away from moon clips. They already have the load data. It would be a simple change to make. Maybe instead of a 5 shot GP-100 in 44 Special it could have been a 6 shot 40 S&W Rimmed.

As for shooting the 9mm Federal in an old top break I doubt ot would hurt anything. The bullet is way undersized for the pressure to build. A friend had an old top break in 38 S&W and the gun store Guru found that 38 Super would catch on the semi rim and so thats what he shot in it. I even shot 5 myself with no damage to me or the gun. But a .355 bullet in a .361 bore doesn't get to build much pressure.

Don't mean to go too off topic here, but how would .38 S&W do in a top break if loaded with a 148gr wadcutter? Like, compared to .38 Spl.

Obviously wouldn't load it flush with the case mouth, I'd have the bullet sticking out far enough to get a charge of powder in the case. I'm figuring in a 2 or 3 inch barrel, the velocity for even .38+P doesn't guarantee expansion, but the fast reload of a top break wouldn't be too bad.

In the Speer #10 manual they show doing just that. The HB bullet is seated out in the case a little and the charges are kept at 38 Special target load pressures.





As you can see some of the velocities aren't too shabby. That should be enough power to provide a decent SD load.

 

[BlueHeelerFl]

The 38S&W was a serviceable round for its day. And if used in a more modern gun can be turned up a little in the power dept. I don't have one but I would like to have one. I have seen a few threads were some have mentioned that modern revolver rounds have way more case than is needed for the powder charge used. Thats because some were carry overs from the black powder era. A 38 Special case is a good point. The case could be shortened by almost have and still give standard 38 bullet speeds. And do it with a smaller gun with a shorter cylinder.

The 38 S&W is already short and can be loaded well past where its normally loaded now. Except for all the old, weak guns it might find its way into. So for that reason its stays loaded to turn of the last century pressures. That was almost done 20 years ago when the 9mm Federal came out. A modern rimmed 38 S&W for a modern built gun. That was until someone figured out it would chamber in all the really old guns and would be a liability. But they had the right idea. And I guess that explains the popularity of the 9mm revolvers. Now if someone would build a gun around the 9mm round with a shorter cylinder and more compact frame size like the "I" frame and make it from the tough modern steels that are now available. What a pocket gun that would be.

Taurus does make the Taurus 380 snubbie that has a shortened cylinder and frame. Its about 1/2 shorter than an 856

 

[TTv2]

TTv2 I have thought the same thing for many years. Why don't they add a rim to the 10mm/40S&W and get away from moon clips. They already have the load data. It would be a simple change to make. Maybe instead of a 5 shot GP-100 in 44 Special it could have been a 6 shot 40 S&W Rimmed.

As for shooting the 9mm Federal in an old top break I doubt ot would hurt anything. The bullet is way undersized for the pressure to build. A friend had an old top break in 38 S&W and the gun store Guru found that 38 Super would catch on the semi rim and so thats what he shot in it. I even shot 5 myself with no damage to me or the gun. But a .355 bullet in a .361 bore doesn't get to build much pressure.



In the Speer #10 manual they show doing just that. The HB bullet is seated out in the case a little and the charges are kept at 38 Special target load pressures.

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As you can see some of the velocities aren't too shabby. That should be enough power to provide a decent SD load.

Oh, nice. I didn't know there was published data for such a load.

 

[ThomasT]

Oh, nice. I didn't know there was published data for such a load.

If you look at the velocities you see they aren't far off from what some report getting from 2" snubbies shooting target WC ammo from them. In some cases the speeds are even better. There is nothing wrong with the 38 S&W round. It just needs a modern platform to launch it from. But don't hold your breath. There are too many modern 38 snubs floating around for the gun makers to ever go backwards in power. It would only appeal to the few of us who would think a new made top break would be a cool gun to own.

 

[Monac]

Somebody ought to design a ".38 For God's Don't Fire This in an Old Top Break" (38 FGDFTOTB) cartridge. It would be a 38 S&W round loaded to a useful power. It could be used in S&W 38 S&W Victory models, and those .380 Enfields that Ruger made for India, as well as new production guns. But then there are the old Colt Banker Specials and Police Positive 38s - I wonder if they could take it?

 

[ThomasT]

Monac you're on the right track. But the factories will never load a 38 S&W up to modern pressures because of the liability. Not every gun owner reads on the forums or read gun magazines and doesn't know that Granpa's old Iver Johnson might be wrecked or blown up with a 21st century loading. And apparently they can't read warnings on boxes of ammo either. Thats why rifle only 32-20 loads had to be dropped because people were shooting them in old revolvers not designed to take the pressure.

And now the 38 Special is so ingrained a new 38 S&W would never stand a chance. I would like to hear more about the Ruger made Enfields you mentioned. Thats a new one for me.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Monac you're on the right track. But the factories will never load a 38 S&W up to modern pressures because of the liability. Not every gun owner reads on the forums or read gun magazines and doesn't know that Granpa's old Iver Johnson might be wrecked or blown up with a 21st century loading. And apparently they can't read warnings on boxes of ammo either. Thats why rifle only 32-20 loads had to be dropped because people were shooting them in old revolvers not designed to take the pressure.

And now the 38 Special is so ingrained a new 38 S&W would never stand a chance. I would like to hear more about the Ruger made Enfields you mentioned. Thats a new one for me.

Ruger didn’t make top-break revolvers they made .380Rimmed chambered Security Six and Service Six revolvers for the Indian government. They are exceedingly rare in this in part because Indian police forces are still using them.

But then there are the old Colt Banker Specials and Police Positive 38s - I wonder if they could take it?

Yes. Easily. They are very strong guns. I use a late 50’s made I-J Cadet 55-SA to test my heavy .38 loads. Those old Bulldog/American pattern revolvers are solid.

 

[ThomasT]

Ruger didn’t make top-break revolvers they made .380Rimmed chambered Security Six and Service Six revolvers for the Indian government. They are exceedingly rare in this in part because Indian police forces are still using them.

Now that you mention them like that I do remember hearing about them but without the prompt I would have never recalled them.

But how cool would a Ruger built Enfield top break be? I bet before long there would be "Ruger Only" 38 S&W loads being listed in the reload manuals.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Monac you're on the right track. But the factories will never load a 38 S&W up to modern pressures because of the liability. Not every gun owner reads on the forums or read gun magazines and doesn't know that Granpa's old Iver Johnson might be wrecked or blown up with a 21st century loading. And apparently they can't read warnings on boxes of ammo either. Thats why rifle only 32-20 loads had to be dropped because people were shooting them in old revolvers not designed to take the pressure.

And now the 38 Special is so ingrained a new 38 S&W would never stand a chance. I would like to hear more about the Ruger made Enfields you mentioned. Thats a new one for me.

So call it the 9.2mm Revolver Short Magnum (RSM) and send one to American Handgunner to review. They’ll love it

 

[ThomasT]

So call it the 9.2mm Revolver Short Magnum (RSM) and send one to American Handgunner to review. They’ll love it

I think you're on to something.

RSM? Ruger short Magnum.

 

[Monac]

Monac you're on the right track. But the factories will never load a 38 S&W up to modern pressures because of the liability. Not every gun owner reads on the forums or read gun magazines and doesn't know that Granpa's old Iver Johnson might be wrecked or blown up with a 21st century loading. And apparently they can't read warnings on boxes of ammo either. Thats why rifle only 32-20 loads had to be dropped because people were shooting them in old revolvers not designed to take the pressure.

And now the 38 Special is so ingrained a new 38 S&W would never stand a chance. I would like to hear more about the Ruger made Enfields you mentioned. Thats a new one for me.

You are perfectly right. That is why the new round, while actually interchangeable with 38 S&W, cannot be called 38 S&W. Maybe the "38 Gun Exploder"? And it must say on the box that it cannot be used in revolvers made before WWII, or 1950, or in any top break, or something like that.

But that's a pipe dream, as you say; nobody is going to trust anybody to read a box anymore, and people who do incredibly stupid things still sue those who, in their minds, made it possible for them to do something so stupid. They rarely win, but they cost a lot of money in legal fees, and nobody wants to risk it for the relatively small amount of money to be made in making such ammuntion.

 

[Monac]

Ruger didn’t make top-break revolvers they made .380Rimmed chambered Security Six and Service Six revolvers for the Indian government. They are exceedingly rare in this in part because Indian police forces are still using them.

Yes. Easily. They are very strong guns. I use a late 50’s made I-J Cadet 55-SA to test my heavy .38 loads. Those old Bulldog/American pattern revolvers are solid.

I phrased my post poorly. I meant the revolvers Ruger made for India (or some other former member of the British Commonwealth) that were chambered for the .380 Enfield cartridge. I should have taken more care, because the gun and the cartridge have the same name.

 

[Monac]

Now that you mention them like that I do remember hearing about them but without the prompt I would have never recalled them.

But how cool would a Ruger built Enfield top break be? I bet before long there would be "Ruger Only" 38 S&W loads being listed in the reload manuals.

A) There was one of the Ruger .380 Rimmed revolvers on GunBroker fairly recently, but I can't find it in the "Completed Items". I'll poke around some more, but they seem to clean that out pretty fast,

B) Ruger would do a fine job of making a top break revolver. If I won one of those huge lottery payouts, I would commission them to do it. And I could dramatically increase my odds of winning the lottery by buying a ticket once in a while!

PS - I found the completed Ruger "380 Rimmed" revolver listing on GunBroker: https://www.gunbroker.com/item/891087347

 

[Gordon]

Car bodies were a whole lot thicker. I have looked at some old car bodies and they didn't spare the metal when they built a vehicle. There is a place around Houston called the Ambulance Museum or something like that and the frames, bodies wheels and everything was built like it would never go out of style and would last a century. And you know what? They did.

In spite of what they said in the latest corn ball movie about Bonnie & Clyde Ted Hinton and Sheriff Smoot Schmid did shoot at B&C with a couple of Thompson machine guns and the bullets bounced off the bodies but broke out a couple of windows. They said they wanted nothing else to do with the "Tinny Thompsons" and got a couple of BARs like Clyde used.

https://www.nmfh.org/

I believe what did the killing was .35 Remington ! Clean thru car and bodies of occupants . Of course .30-06 is even better !

 

[ThomasT]

PS - I found the completed Ruger "380 Rimmed" revolver listing on GunBroker: https://www.gunbroker.com/item/891087347

I found .380 rimmed blank rounds but found nothing on real 380 rimmed ammo with a google search. No matter, I'm not buying one anyway.

 

[herrwalther]

I have a Colt in 38 S&W. Finding ammo for it can be quite a pain. Thankfully it is my wife's gun so she doesn't shoot it much. 38 Spc essentially killed off the 38SW for most countries. India is the only nation with the round still in service for their revolvers. Not sure in what capacity but I would guess some military or police role.

 

[ThomasT]

I believe what did the killing was .35 Remington ! Clean thru car and bodies of occupants . Of course .30-06 is even better !

Actually Clyde was killed with the first shot fired by Louisiana deputy Prentiss Oakley firing a Winchester 94 in 30-30 (head shot). Hammer had a model 8 in 35 Remington and Bob Alcorn and Ted Hinton had BARs and I don't know what the Louisiana sheriff was armed with.

You can read a lot more about B&C on this website. Its the very best IMHO.

https://texashideout.tripod.com/bc.htm