What was the original velocity of 45 ACP hardball?

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W.H.B. Smith, Small Arms of the World, Stackpole, 1966, gives the velocity of the .45 ACP from the Model 1911A1 as 830 fps with the 230gr bullet.

Checking an old Shooters Bible (1994),
Federal Cartridge Co., Load No. 45A, 230 gr FMJ bullet, 5" test barrel, was listed as 850 fps at the muzzle, 830 fps at 25 yards.
Winchester listed a .45ACP 230gr FMJ load at 835fps muzzle velocity; their 230gr JHP at 850fps muzzle velocity.

looking about, a lot of manufacturers loaded .45ACP at 850fps muzzle velocity.
 
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Not sure where I read it but 830fps is standard from a 5 inch 1911. Blazer Brass is supposed to run at 830 and modern Federal says 885fps on the box I believe. Winchester white box says 835
 
According to Cartridges of the World the military load is 855 fps +-25fps. This is for standard , steel case , and match.
 
Apparently, during original development, back in the early 1900s, (@1904/5) Browning and
Colt selected the 230 grain ball ammo at 850FPS, from assorted offerings by UMC, Frankford Arsenal, and Winchester Repeating Arms. But that was only during development.
There is no indication I can find which shows that to be the actual military
selected load.
 
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U.S. Army loads were never a 200 grain bullets, the only ball load ever adopted was a 230 gr RN at 855 (+/-) fps, M1911 Ball is still the standard ball load for .45 caliber.

To say the original load for Caliber .45 is 200 grains at 900 fps is like saying the original load for 7.62 mm NATO is a 136 gr flat base FMJ at 2800 fps.
 
Carl N. Brown said:
200 gr at 900 fps
Click to expand...
Bingo! The original 45 ACP load, adopted in 1905 featured a 200 GR bullet at 900 fps.
lysanderxiii said:
To say the original load for Caliber .45 is 200 grains at 900 fps is like saying the original load for 7.62 mm NATO is a 136 gr flat base FMJ at 2800 fps.
Click to expand...
Sorry to disappoint you, but the original .45 ACP load was a 200 gr. bullet at 900 FPS. You are correct in saying that the Army never adopted the 200 Gr. load, but that was the original load that the cartridge was introduced in.
 
tark said:
I have no idea where you came up with that 136 gr. bullet. The 7.62 NATO was never loaded with that bullet weight.
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The original T104 Ball loading in 1949-50 was with the T11 bullet, a 136 grain FB, at 2800 fps. The 136 grain T11 bullet was the one used in the 1950 comparative trials against the British .280/30, it wasn't until 1952-ish that the 148 +/-3 grain FMJ-BT T21 bullet (with a mild steel core) was introduced in the T104E2.

The T70E5 Dummy, T71E1 HPT, T93E2 AP, T102E2 Tracer, T104E2 Ball, and T114E2 Grenade were adopted as the M59 Ball, M60 HPT, M61 AP, M62 Tracer, M63 Dummy, and M64 Grenade, in the US and Standardized as 7.62 mm NATO. M80 Ball (lead core, M59 used the T21 bullet) was a later development of the T65E5/T233.

The 136 grain, T104, Caliber .30 Light Rifle Cartridge was a developmental round, just like the 1905, 200 grain, Caliber .45 round.
 
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tark said:
Bingo! The original 45 ACP load, adopted in 1905 featured a 200 GR bullet at 900 fps.

Sorry to disappoint you, but the original .45 ACP load was a 200 gr. bullet at 900 FPS. You are correct in saying that the Army never adopted the 200 Gr. load, but that was the original load that the cartridge was introduced in.
Click to expand...
My understanding is that Browning thought the 200 gr. was ideal for the gun, but the Army wanted a heavier bullet and insisted on the 230 gr.
 
lysanderxiii said:
The original T104 Ball loading in 1949-50 was with the T11 bullet, a 136 grain FB, at 2800 fps. The 136 grain T11 bullet was the one used in the 1950 comparative trials against the British .280/30, it wasn't until 1952-ish that the 148 +/-3 grain FMJ-BT T21 bullet (with a mild steel core) was introduced in the T104E2.

The T70E5 Dummy, T71E1 HPT, T93E2 AP, T102E2 Tracer, T104E2 Ball, and T114E2 Grenade were adopted as the M59 Ball, M60 HPT, M61 AP, M62 Tracer, M63 Dummy, and M64 Grenade, in the US and Standardized as 7.62 mm NATO. M80 Ball (lead core, M59 used the T21 bullet) was a later development of the T65E5/T233.

The 136 grain, T104, Caliber .30 Light Rifle Cartridge was a developmental round, just like the 1905, 200 grain, Caliber .45 round.
Click to expand...
Ahhhh....I just learned something! Thanks.
 
Everybody tries to channel Mr Browning and get him to say something he did not do.
What he designed and Colt produced in 1905 had little to do with the 1911 as adopted, except to get their foot in the door with production model guns to start testing while other manufacturers tried to come up with something in a hurry. I think there must have been a leak on the 1904 Thompson LaGarde report that confirmed the Indian Fighters insistence on a return to .45 caliber. Colt sure dropped the .41 Auto like a hot potato.

The 1905 load is commonly listed as a 200 gr roundnose at 900 fps. This may well be advertising exaggeration or even a typo taken as truth. Ezell says 850 fps and I have seen mention of even lower velocity.
In the 1939 Stoegers, the 1905 load had dropped off the US ammo companies' lists, but there was still an entry in the English ammunition table for a 200 at 870.
The early UMC load was a 200 gr FMJ and 5 gr of Bullseye.
Unfortunately, Phil Sharpe did not test that load, he quotes the 900 fps conventional wisdom but got 790 fps with 4.5 gr Bull and 885 with 5.2.
Ken Waters got 815 fps with 4.8 gr Bullseye and a 200 gr Speer.

According to Ezell, the 1906 Frankford Arsenal spec was for a 230 at 800. By the time of the Colt vs Savage trials of 1910, velocity was up to 850.
 
While in Vietnam our supply Sgt. showed me a spec sheet for 45 ACP Ball (he knew I was a gun crank). It said, "230g @ 830 fps +- 15 fps." So on that particular contract (if memory serves it was dated 1968) a velocity of 815 fps to 845 fps would have fallen into the acceptable specification.

And, when JHB invented/designed the 45 ACP cartridge it was indeed a 200g @ 900 fps round. And the Ordinance Dept. said they preferred the 230g bullet of the old Scofield round. Kind of a 'that's what we always used and see no reason to change' mentality going on. So the 45 ACP became a 230g at lower (less than 900 fps) velocity by the time it was adopted.

Dave
 
I always liked the 200 grain over the 230 grain bullet. I seem to be able to shoot it better in my 1911.
 
Jonesy814 said:
Not sure where I read it but 830fps is standard from a 5 inch 1911. Blazer Brass is supposed to run at 830 and modern Federal says 885fps on the box I believe. Winchester white box says 835
Click to expand...

I always wondered how the velocity was measured when it was developed. Well before chronographs
 
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