Ron L
Member
Podwich, you took the words out of my mouth.
Of course, the ballistic plate duct-taped onto his back helps. 
What won't a 308 kill?
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Podwich, you took the words out of my mouth.
Of course, the ballistic plate duct-taped onto his back helps. Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
Arrgghhh! Pointman, you took the words right out of my mouth!!!
That's unsanitary.
Art
That's unsanitary.
Art
cracked butt
Member
I've been told by many people that it won't kill anything larger than a whitetail but in fact that you need one of those magic magnums to kill moose or elk. It must because the .308 won't penetrate the plate armor that these beasts wear but a magically endowed magnum will go right through the armor.
Freedom in theSkies
Member.
The Killer Rabbit...
You'd need the Holy Hand Grenade for that.
Preacherman: What do you think?
You'd need the Holy Hand Grenade for that.
Preacherman: What do you think?
BerettaNut92
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Humpback whales
Gordon
Member
I love the .308 but it gets pretty crowed in the case with a 200 grain bullet in a short action, also 2200-2400fps is .35 remington country.
Preacherman
Member
I dunno, Freedom - never have encountered one of those... does the smoke smell like incense when it goes off?The Killer Rabbit...
You'd need the Holy Hand Grenade for that.
Preacherman: What do you think?
Just to illustrate that "stopping power" can sometimes be on the animal's side... We had an hilarious incident in South Africa in the mid-1980's. A patrol was moving along the South African border with Mozambique, through the Kruger National Park. They were in three "Buffel" APC's: this is an open-topped, V-hull, mine-protected vehicle based on a Unimog-type chassis. Very effective against even anti-tank landmine blasts: even with a full-house TM-46 going off beneath it, the guys inside will typically suffer no more than a headache.
Anyway, the corporal driving the lead vehicle made the grievous mistake of driving between Mommy Elephant and Baby Elephant. Mommy didn't like this one little bit, and called up a couple of her girlfriends to help her express her displeasure. The three of them literally dismantled the Buffel, armor-plate by armor-plate! What an anti-tank landmine couldn't do, three angry elephants did with surpassing ease... The guys inside were OK - they legged it out of the back as soon as the elephants approached, and allegedly broke several Olympic records in sprinting back about 150 yards to the next vehicle. They unfortunately left their rifles, etc. in the Buffel (R4's - a South African variant of the Israeli Galil in 5.56mm.), and these were reduced to scrap along with the vehicle. (Not that it would have helped them much to try using them... a 5.56mm. is pretty useless against even a whitetail in its military ball FMJ configuration, so against an elephant, it would only have made them angrier than they already were!)
The funniest part was the reported reaction of the lieutenant in charge of the patrol. He was reported to have said ruefully, whilst surveying the wreckage of the Buffel after the elephants had departed, "Now how on Earth do I explain this to the quartermaster?"
Gordon
Member
Flesh dismantantling amor plate? Well I believe it only because the Preacherman said so!
twoblink
Member
If a 308 is shot in the forest, and nobody is around to hear it, does it still make a nice big hole??
The 308 seems like a well optimized round.
Art, is there any "hunting" loads and tips you can think of (or anybody else) that I can't get in a 308 but can in a 30-06??
The 308 seems like a well optimized round.
Art, is there any "hunting" loads and tips you can think of (or anybody else) that I can't get in a 308 but can in a 30-06??
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
Most receivers of rifles for .30-'06 are long enough that you can seat the bullets pretty far out. This lets you get more push for 180-grains on up to 220, compared to the .308.
Years back, I read that factory loads for the .308 ran 53,000 psi, but for the '06, 47,000 to 49,000. On account of all the older rifles in '06. So, loading a modern-made '06 to 53,000 gives a couple of hundred ft/sec more punch, throughout the spectrum of bullet weights.
The Federal High Energy loads in a 26" barrel give 3,150 ft/sec to a 165-grain, according to a guy in Australia who's chronographed them. This agrees with what Mr. Federal sez on the box.
I've always joked that my Wby with its 26" barrel is a "cheater". That is, guys with 22" .308s can't get the MV I do with my handloads, and a .300 WinMag with a 24" isn't that far ahead of me.
About every ten years or so, somebody writing for the American Rifleman does the proverbial test of chopping one inch at a time off a barrel. Sometimes, two or three different cartridges for the testing. Off and on since 1940, then, I've read that for cartridges like the .308, it's around 50 ft/sec/inch. For the '06, around 75 ft/sec/inch. For 7mmMag or .300 WinMag, around 100 ft/sec/inch.
SFAIK, the "why" has to do with relative case efficiency. The '06 is at the edge of "overbore", and the maggies are moreso.
The .308 was among the first to be computer-aided in its design. It works pretty good in a 22" tube. That's why you see me recommend it over the '06 for those not wanting a 24" or 26" barrel for their rifle. A short '06 is gonna have more muzzle flash and the longer action = more weight, but no more MV than the .308.
And now you know as much as I do.
Art
PS: I've always liked the doggerel I once saw in a Cooper Column:
"Ain't many things a feller can't fix,
With a few hundred dollars and a thutty-ought-six."
Years back, I read that factory loads for the .308 ran 53,000 psi, but for the '06, 47,000 to 49,000. On account of all the older rifles in '06. So, loading a modern-made '06 to 53,000 gives a couple of hundred ft/sec more punch, throughout the spectrum of bullet weights.
The Federal High Energy loads in a 26" barrel give 3,150 ft/sec to a 165-grain, according to a guy in Australia who's chronographed them. This agrees with what Mr. Federal sez on the box.
I've always joked that my Wby with its 26" barrel is a "cheater". That is, guys with 22" .308s can't get the MV I do with my handloads, and a .300 WinMag with a 24" isn't that far ahead of me.
About every ten years or so, somebody writing for the American Rifleman does the proverbial test of chopping one inch at a time off a barrel. Sometimes, two or three different cartridges for the testing. Off and on since 1940, then, I've read that for cartridges like the .308, it's around 50 ft/sec/inch. For the '06, around 75 ft/sec/inch. For 7mmMag or .300 WinMag, around 100 ft/sec/inch.
SFAIK, the "why" has to do with relative case efficiency. The '06 is at the edge of "overbore", and the maggies are moreso.
The .308 was among the first to be computer-aided in its design. It works pretty good in a 22" tube. That's why you see me recommend it over the '06 for those not wanting a 24" or 26" barrel for their rifle. A short '06 is gonna have more muzzle flash and the longer action = more weight, but no more MV than the .308.
And now you know as much as I do.
Art
PS: I've always liked the doggerel I once saw in a Cooper Column:
"Ain't many things a feller can't fix,
With a few hundred dollars and a thutty-ought-six."
duck hunt
Member
A .308 will surely not kill those huge prehistoric elephant things from The Two Towers.
twoblink
Member
duck hunt, I'm not sure I agree with that;
Placement is everything...
The case efficiency is a lot better in 308 from my understanding; it shoots quite flat, and for regular rounds, pack about as much wham as a '06.
As far as chopping barrels, what surprised me the most was actually something like the .357Mag out of a 16" barrel vs. a 2" snubbie; totally different beast.
I do think the '06 is more versatile, but for logistics and price, I don't think the 308 is beatable..
I'm wondering as I have two rifles in 308; an M1A and a Mauser; if the action effects the velocity that much as some of the gas is used to cycle the round??
Placement is everything...
The case efficiency is a lot better in 308 from my understanding; it shoots quite flat, and for regular rounds, pack about as much wham as a '06.
As far as chopping barrels, what surprised me the most was actually something like the .357Mag out of a 16" barrel vs. a 2" snubbie; totally different beast.
I do think the '06 is more versatile, but for logistics and price, I don't think the 308 is beatable..
I'm wondering as I have two rifles in 308; an M1A and a Mauser; if the action effects the velocity that much as some of the gas is used to cycle the round??
Why do I suspect that folks who think a .308 is enough for an elephant have never seen an elephant? I am reliably informed that they are easy to kill with even a .22CB cap as long as the shooters is in his armchair and thousands of miles from the nearest wild elephant.
Jim
Jim
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
Aw, Jim, it's the "amplifier" effect of armchairs. Bullets go faster, aim is better, IQ goes up...All that stuff and much more...
twoblink, I'd imagine that with a gas port out by the muzzle, the loss in gas pressure against the bullet is hardly enough to measure. In a Garand, my understanding is that the pressure at the port has already fallen to 2,000 psi. The percentage loss would be a function of the square of the bore diameter vs. the square of the gas-port diameter.
Art
twoblink, I'd imagine that with a gas port out by the muzzle, the loss in gas pressure against the bullet is hardly enough to measure. In a Garand, my understanding is that the pressure at the port has already fallen to 2,000 psi. The percentage loss would be a function of the square of the bore diameter vs. the square of the gas-port diameter.
Art
twoblink
Member
I think however, while the gas-port leak probably isn't anything to measure of significance, the bolt slam might be what off's your aim.
Jim, Elephants? Isn't that what a 4-gauge shotgun SLUG was designed for???
Yeah, I know, people go "blah blah blah hunt elephant blah blah blah .22LR blah blah blah" I'm a fan of a .22LR, one of the best rounds in the world, but unless you are talking 1000 rounds rapid fire, I don't think I want to wait 4 weeks for the elephant to "bleed out".
An elephant's heart is bigger then my head, it has more blood in the heart then two of me, I know that!! So a .22LR hole just isn't going to cut it...
Jim, Elephants? Isn't that what a 4-gauge shotgun SLUG was designed for???
Yeah, I know, people go "blah blah blah hunt elephant blah blah blah .22LR blah blah blah" I'm a fan of a .22LR, one of the best rounds in the world, but unless you are talking 1000 rounds rapid fire, I don't think I want to wait 4 weeks for the elephant to "bleed out".
An elephant's heart is bigger then my head, it has more blood in the heart then two of me, I know that!! So a .22LR hole just isn't going to cut it...
Preacherman
Member
Peter Capstick wrote of two verified elephant killings with a .22LR in East Africa. I met a guy who lived there at the time, and he confirmed that they had, indeed, happened. In both cases, the shooter was at VERY close range, and waited until the elephant moved its leg forward, exposing the (relatively) thin skin behind the leg. The shot was fired into that area, where the main arteries and veins lead from/to the heart into the lung and chest area. The bullets perforated these blood vessels, causing death by blood loss after some time (and distance!). Still, not something I'd want to try... having been "up close and personal" with elephants on many occasions (although I've never hunted them - never wanted to!), I don't want to anger one of them any more than I have to!
BTW, since coming to live in the USA, I'm realizing more and more how incredibly fortunate and blessed I was to grow up and live in South Africa, where hunting is freely available if one has friends with farms, and where encounters with all the animals American hunters dream about are only a relatively short drive away. I've taken (for food) buffalo, eland, kudu, most of the smaller antelope, etc., and never paid a cent for safari fees. When I look at what Americans are charged to hunt in Africa, my eyes widen considerably! Just goes to show that if you know the right people...
Perhaps I should get on to my farming friends in South Africa and have them investigate the possibilities for providing lower-cost hunts for African antelope for interested Americans. They could charge a quarter of the professional safari outfits' fees, and still make a pretty decent profit. Of course, they wouldn't offer 5-star accommodation, etc., but who needs that?
BTW, since coming to live in the USA, I'm realizing more and more how incredibly fortunate and blessed I was to grow up and live in South Africa, where hunting is freely available if one has friends with farms, and where encounters with all the animals American hunters dream about are only a relatively short drive away. I've taken (for food) buffalo, eland, kudu, most of the smaller antelope, etc., and never paid a cent for safari fees. When I look at what Americans are charged to hunt in Africa, my eyes widen considerably! Just goes to show that if you know the right people...
Perhaps I should get on to my farming friends in South Africa and have them investigate the possibilities for providing lower-cost hunts for African antelope for interested Americans. They could charge a quarter of the professional safari outfits' fees, and still make a pretty decent profit. Of course, they wouldn't offer 5-star accommodation, etc., but who needs that?
Gordon
Member
Roger that one!
duckfoot
member
can't kill a M1A2 tank driver
I would believe that an elephant could dismantle armor no matter who said it. I mean...its an elephant. Its freaking huge. Like very very very very very large.
And if it can't be killed by a .308, I don't want to take shots at it.
And if it can't be killed by a .308, I don't want to take shots at it.
45R
Member
a High Point 
Well back in the good old days many people used 6.5mm carbines to survive with in Alaska (see "The Wilderness of Denali" by Charles Sheldon), Alaska/Canada ("Writings on Ice" by Vilhjalmur Stefansson) and Central Asia ("Dragon Hunter: Roy Chapman Andrews and the Central Asiatic Expiditions" by Charles Gallenkamp). There are plenty of others that used military cartridges of the day to take most everything that walked.
Sheldon fed himself and also sled dogs during the winter using a 6.5mm carbine in darkest alaska. At one point he notes "that for five dogs the meat of an average sheep provided only two meals."
IMHO the 7.62NATO/308 Win--along with all similar power cartridges like 7x57, 270, '06, etc-is enough gun for hunting anything short of Elephant, buffalo, or Brown Bear/polar bear as long as you use a good bullet (partition, Failsafe, Barnes X).
In the end I think it is more important not to use too much gun for yourself than using enough gun for target. Better to use a "little gun" with a tough bullet that your not afraid of, than a "big gun".
Sheldon fed himself and also sled dogs during the winter using a 6.5mm carbine in darkest alaska. At one point he notes "that for five dogs the meat of an average sheep provided only two meals."
IMHO the 7.62NATO/308 Win--along with all similar power cartridges like 7x57, 270, '06, etc-is enough gun for hunting anything short of Elephant, buffalo, or Brown Bear/polar bear as long as you use a good bullet (partition, Failsafe, Barnes X).
In the end I think it is more important not to use too much gun for yourself than using enough gun for target. Better to use a "little gun" with a tough bullet that your not afraid of, than a "big gun".
WonderNine
member
Hmm....legions of the undead?
Nothing else comes to mind....
BerettaNut92
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Skunks and killer whales.
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