Justin
Moderator Emeritus
Um, you guys do know that the John Titor thing was a hoax, right? 
What Would It Take?
- Thread starter Turkey Creek
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JPM70535
Member
In today's climate of looking to the Government for every need (Cradle to Grave mentality), IMO there is nothing that would precipitate a second Revolution. Conditioned as they are to life attached to the Federal Teat, all most of the citizenry desire is more "Bread and Circuses"
Having been fortunate enough to grow up in the Fifties when there was still a goodly amount of personal freedom to be enjoyed, I feel the loss of those freedoms deeply. Example: being able to walk down the street with my 22 rifle slung over my shoulder and be greeted by the local Police with the admonition to "Have Fun" and a friendly wave of his hand. Try that today!
The time when the mindset of the average citizen would have demanded revolution to restore the rights taken away or restricted is long past. We are for the most part a nation of sheep.
My only regret is that I probably will not be here when the few Patriots left among us decide to take up arms to right the wrongs.
God Bless the USA (What is left of it)
Having been fortunate enough to grow up in the Fifties when there was still a goodly amount of personal freedom to be enjoyed, I feel the loss of those freedoms deeply. Example: being able to walk down the street with my 22 rifle slung over my shoulder and be greeted by the local Police with the admonition to "Have Fun" and a friendly wave of his hand. Try that today!
The time when the mindset of the average citizen would have demanded revolution to restore the rights taken away or restricted is long past. We are for the most part a nation of sheep.
My only regret is that I probably will not be here when the few Patriots left among us decide to take up arms to right the wrongs.
God Bless the USA (What is left of it)
TamThompson
Member
Mr. Turkey,
We all have our lines in the sand, whether we consciously realize them or not. Some of mine are:
1. Trying to take my guns away.
2. Trying to put me, my family, or friends in a FEMA camp.
3. Trying to get me to shut up (I'm a professional author and freelance writer.)
As to the John Titor thing--yes, it's getting scarier and scarier. I'm a science-fiction writer, and I'm undecided if it's a hoax or not, since I like to keep an open mind. Whatever it was, it was very, very well done and I wouldn't be surprised if the poster has published some science fiction IF it is a hoax. If not...get the heck away from DC in 2012!
We all have our lines in the sand, whether we consciously realize them or not. Some of mine are:
1. Trying to take my guns away.
2. Trying to put me, my family, or friends in a FEMA camp.
3. Trying to get me to shut up (I'm a professional author and freelance writer.)
As to the John Titor thing--yes, it's getting scarier and scarier. I'm a science-fiction writer, and I'm undecided if it's a hoax or not, since I like to keep an open mind. Whatever it was, it was very, very well done and I wouldn't be surprised if the poster has published some science fiction IF it is a hoax. If not...get the heck away from DC in 2012!
13A
Member
I don't think it will happen because of taxes. The fed guvmint is buying off more of the masses each year with handouts. More taxes on a shrinking group of tax payers to give to a growing group of tax receivers.
The dwindling group of tax payers have too much to lose to rock the boat.
The growing group of tax receivers have too much to gain by maintaining the status quo.
I doubt it will happen over guns either. They'll not try to take them, just tax them or maybe just tax ammunition to the hilt. Look at the taxes on cigarets for the model they will use.
The dwindling group of tax payers have too much to lose to rock the boat.
The growing group of tax receivers have too much to gain by maintaining the status quo.
I doubt it will happen over guns either. They'll not try to take them, just tax them or maybe just tax ammunition to the hilt. Look at the taxes on cigarets for the model they will use.
I'd like to post something that I hope everyone who reads will take a minute to really think about it.
Will you recognize a second revolution if it happens? Our government and media will spin it as domestic terrorism and bashing the characters of the people who choose to stand up as probably being insane baby killers are something equally terrible.
We must all learn to see through the bias that our government and media purport. We must also learn to recognize what situations would call forth a time to stand up as a people. A handful of modern day patriots can only last so long...give them your support as reinforcement to let them know they are not alone in the values and freedoms they cherish.
Will you recognize a second revolution if it happens? Our government and media will spin it as domestic terrorism and bashing the characters of the people who choose to stand up as probably being insane baby killers are something equally terrible.
We must all learn to see through the bias that our government and media purport. We must also learn to recognize what situations would call forth a time to stand up as a people. A handful of modern day patriots can only last so long...give them your support as reinforcement to let them know they are not alone in the values and freedoms they cherish.
In all practicality, it should not be started in the way you mentioned (shooting up a courthouse).
One way would be for a large, armed group to make a joint effort against federal forces. State law enforcement centers or judicial buildings must never be a target...only federal. One method would be for this group to move into the building en masse and immediately demand the withdrawl of all employees from the building and to not return. Repeat said scenario with other federal buildings...granted I would not believe some to give up as easily as others, hence why a demonstration of a large armed populace is needed to properly persuade them.
Shooting up a courthouse or blowing up a federal building is absolutely the wrong way to do things. You will come out the bad guy each and every time, and you actually are. The effort must be concentrated against the single entity you are revolting against: the federal government. As soon as such a hypothetical operation is in place, statements should be made immediately to let the state and local governments know that they are not the target nor will any harm come to them.
1. Select your target and stick to it. Do not start picking other targets unless they demonstrate intent to do grave harm against you.
2. Use non-violent methods to "persuade" them from their jobs and resources always. Only when lethal force is used against you are you to return fire.
3. Show respect to those people/entities you are fighting even if they do not show it to you.
4. Always take an opportunity to let the people know why you are fighting. Let them know your reasons and let them see your determination. If fellow Americans were to see people fighting for a cause, putting their lives on the line, it will have an impact. Having the power of the people behind your cause is probably the ultimate force anyone could ever hope for.
One way would be for a large, armed group to make a joint effort against federal forces. State law enforcement centers or judicial buildings must never be a target...only federal. One method would be for this group to move into the building en masse and immediately demand the withdrawl of all employees from the building and to not return. Repeat said scenario with other federal buildings...granted I would not believe some to give up as easily as others, hence why a demonstration of a large armed populace is needed to properly persuade them.
Shooting up a courthouse or blowing up a federal building is absolutely the wrong way to do things. You will come out the bad guy each and every time, and you actually are. The effort must be concentrated against the single entity you are revolting against: the federal government. As soon as such a hypothetical operation is in place, statements should be made immediately to let the state and local governments know that they are not the target nor will any harm come to them.
1. Select your target and stick to it. Do not start picking other targets unless they demonstrate intent to do grave harm against you.
2. Use non-violent methods to "persuade" them from their jobs and resources always. Only when lethal force is used against you are you to return fire.
3. Show respect to those people/entities you are fighting even if they do not show it to you.
4. Always take an opportunity to let the people know why you are fighting. Let them know your reasons and let them see your determination. If fellow Americans were to see people fighting for a cause, putting their lives on the line, it will have an impact. Having the power of the people behind your cause is probably the ultimate force anyone could ever hope for.
ClonaKilty
Member
For me it would have to be a modern equivalent of Kristallnacht. I am as laissez-faire as they come, but high taxes and smarmy cops do not justify assassinating elected officials.
GigaBuist
Member
Seriously, pinblaster, you are, or at least you were in the mid 90's according to Paul Harvey. Not the best source in the world -- but you get the idea. It's really really close either way.
After the Bush Tax Cuts my off-the-bat take-home is only about 26% less than Gross when you look at the federal government. Smack 4% on that for State income tax and then figure I don't actually save money -- 6% sales tax on that -- but I don't spend all my money on taxable goods so we'll say i1/3rd of my income isn't hit with sales tax. That's a 32% tax rate right there. Now figure I spedn 15% of my money on guns and ammo -- which is hit with an additional 10% tax. That's another 1.5% of my income and we're now at 33.5%. Those are just the obvious ones!
Heck, here in Michigan we pay about 45cents per gallon of gax in taxes right now. That's 25% of all the money I spend on gas going to a government of some type. That adds up pretty quick!
Got a phone? Taxed. Rent a hotel room on vacation? Extra taxes. The list goes on and on and on. You add it up and it's over 50% now. Trust me.
Nobody notices though.
Selfdfenz
Member
"One way would be for a large, armed group to make a joint effort against federal forces. State law enforcement centers or judicial buildings must never be a target...only federal. One method would be for this group to move into the building en masse and immediately demand the withdrawl of all employees from the building and to not return."
Isn't that what John Brown did basically?
I continue to hope ballots will eventually aim the country in a better direction. (I don't think it will happen in the election soon to come given the candidates)
The end point of revolution is not precise and many revolutions that began with aims of more freedom and enhancements in republican/democratic rule, ended in dictatorships IIRC.
At one time I believed in the logic and right headedness that our LE and military would be on the right side (with the people) in the extremely unlikely event this country ever fell on the hardest of times.
Not sure I still hold that opinion.
S-
Isn't that what John Brown did basically?
I continue to hope ballots will eventually aim the country in a better direction. (I don't think it will happen in the election soon to come given the candidates)
The end point of revolution is not precise and many revolutions that began with aims of more freedom and enhancements in republican/democratic rule, ended in dictatorships IIRC.
At one time I believed in the logic and right headedness that our LE and military would be on the right side (with the people) in the extremely unlikely event this country ever fell on the hardest of times.
Not sure I still hold that opinion.
S-
pinblaster
Member
Giga B. , I understand perfectly what you are saying . The gov. taxes the money you earn and they tax the money you spend . This is why I am against an income tax (not to mention the Ponzi scheme called social security) . You could be right when you say the sum of all the taxes the average person pays is .50 or greater than thier gross income . My point is , when you look at the stub on your paycheck and see that your net pay is less than .50 of what you earned , you may wonder why you bother to work at all :banghead: , then again , you may not . Who knows ? Unless the gov. bocomes a monarcy , dictatorship , or some other totatlitarian regime , a revolution would be pointless , since we are a gov. of the people , by the people and for the people we would only be overthrowing ourselves , kind of like a dog chasing it's tail . We already have a way to change things for the better , it's called voting . People have to get up off thier a$$es and vote ! Vote in the primary elections , vote in the local elections , vote everytime you can . These polititions wern't appointed they were elected , by us . Remember , if you don't vote , someone else will do it for you .
NoHarmNoFAL
Member
There will be no large movement until there is a stoppage of service whether by not being able to afford them or poor management (i.e. blackout 04 but much longer)
You take away gasoline, electricity, and the readily available food then changes are much more likely to happen. Taxes on food transportation is huge (fuel taxes/license) when it no longer becomes profitable for truckers to drive then the whole system will shut down. No more Wal-mart no more Malls no gas even if you could afford it. There will be a time soon when it is just not going to be worth the trouble to work because you won't get enough in return. Then there will be enough upset people to get the attention of the .gov.
Side bar:
What makes you so sure that when AmRev2/Civ2 comes about that
1) We (the right/gun nuts) will start it.
2) IF we do, that the outcome will be in our favor. Be careful of what you wish you just may get it and not like very much.
You take away gasoline, electricity, and the readily available food then changes are much more likely to happen. Taxes on food transportation is huge (fuel taxes/license) when it no longer becomes profitable for truckers to drive then the whole system will shut down. No more Wal-mart no more Malls no gas even if you could afford it. There will be a time soon when it is just not going to be worth the trouble to work because you won't get enough in return. Then there will be enough upset people to get the attention of the .gov.
Side bar:
What makes you so sure that when AmRev2/Civ2 comes about that
1) We (the right/gun nuts) will start it.
2) IF we do, that the outcome will be in our favor. Be careful of what you wish you just may get it and not like very much.
Moparmike
Member
Walmart would last longer in that situation because they are their own trucking line. Few things are shipped to Wally World that aren't in their own trucks.
Penforhire
Member
I'm certainly not wishing for it but the question is valid. Hard to compare with the situation of our founding fathers. I just happened to re-read our Declaration of Independence at lunch today. Their list of grievances shows that King George was too blatant. He didn't turn up the heat slowly.
Our Federal government today is most certainly turning up the heat slowly. There was a jump after 9/11 where they could get away with a jump (e.g. the Patriot Act) but even before this there has been an accumulation of laws seemingly designed to make us all law-breakers.
The progression posted above is scary. How do we prevent dependence? I'm not "on the dole." Most of you don't seem to be either. So does that make us still independent?
I think McVeigh and his friends are nut jobs but how would you distinguish that from a real revolution? Maybe blowing up a Fed building isn't smart but it seems like THEY thought it was the right thing to do.
More likely than revolution is simple "dilution." I see the dilution of America in bilingual voting pamplets (not bilingual or ESL education, that's the answer not the problem). The rights of families to raise children as they see fit has been diluted. Foreigners owning our land is a dilution (go try that in THEIR countries. You only get a lease buddy boy). Maybe the next dilution will be to lower the voting age. Yeah, some whack-job will come along and say ten year olds should be allowed to vote, despite having nothing but jello between the ears. So anyway, maybe decay by dilution is where we're headed.
Our Federal government today is most certainly turning up the heat slowly. There was a jump after 9/11 where they could get away with a jump (e.g. the Patriot Act) but even before this there has been an accumulation of laws seemingly designed to make us all law-breakers.
The progression posted above is scary. How do we prevent dependence? I'm not "on the dole." Most of you don't seem to be either. So does that make us still independent?
I think McVeigh and his friends are nut jobs but how would you distinguish that from a real revolution? Maybe blowing up a Fed building isn't smart but it seems like THEY thought it was the right thing to do.
More likely than revolution is simple "dilution." I see the dilution of America in bilingual voting pamplets (not bilingual or ESL education, that's the answer not the problem). The rights of families to raise children as they see fit has been diluted. Foreigners owning our land is a dilution (go try that in THEIR countries. You only get a lease buddy boy). Maybe the next dilution will be to lower the voting age. Yeah, some whack-job will come along and say ten year olds should be allowed to vote, despite having nothing but jello between the ears. So anyway, maybe decay by dilution is where we're headed.
one45auto
Member
I hear the Democrats are already trying to lower the voting age in California. Ten year-olds would be a dream come true for them - voters physically able to push the right button yet completely uninformed, and easily swayed by promises of more spending money and privileges.
NoHarmNoFAL
Member
The right to private property and privacy on said property was one of the key items that the FF's wanted to be sacred.
Don't pay your "Lease" payment to the government and see how long you still own that property. It is all about incrimentalization (sp). I think that may have shown its self in 1994 when the Dems got smacked around in the mid-term election and lost control. The next time it will be much more subtle or it will have more reproductions. Though I'm not convinced that they don't want an outright violent reaction so that marshal law can be called and then the whip can really be cracked.
Don't pay your "Lease" payment to the government and see how long you still own that property. It is all about incrimentalization (sp). I think that may have shown its self in 1994 when the Dems got smacked around in the mid-term election and lost control. The next time it will be much more subtle or it will have more reproductions. Though I'm not convinced that they don't want an outright violent reaction so that marshal law can be called and then the whip can really be cracked.
DRZinn
Member
On the tax thing:
It's waaaaaay over 50%. Think about all the things businesses are required by law to provide for their employees, all the environmental studies you have to do to build something, all the various assorted bulls--t that businesse are forced to pay.
ALL passed on to the consumer. (If not, the business would close.)
It's waaaaaay over 50%. Think about all the things businesses are required by law to provide for their employees, all the environmental studies you have to do to build something, all the various assorted bulls--t that businesse are forced to pay.
ALL passed on to the consumer. (If not, the business would close.)
NIGHTWATCH
Member
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