What would you Change the US Assault rifle to

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Nolo,

At 4000fps out of say a 16" barrel, the propellant has to have been effectively fully combusted in > ~ 1/3000 second. There will be markedly higher pressures due to faster and thermally hotter propellant

(I know in reality this is not exact but for discussions sake)

At these sort of velocities we are starting to move towards explosives and past propellants and the increased velocity leads to additional issues.

Spin rate has to be markedly adjusted else the round will be spinning so fast on exiting the barrel that centrifugal force can cause the round to mechanically "explode" within a few metres of the barrel. You can see examples of this with 40gr .223 rounds in a 1:7 twist barrel.

Higher speed rounds will tend to erode/wear the barrel faster as well as the higher pressures of the propellant causing additional mechanical stress on the gas system.

The bolt and chamber will be subject to markedly higher pressures and will need to be appropriately reinforced and probably re-engineered. There has already been a lot of work undertaken to increase the mechanical strength of the current bolt lugs with faster twist .223's and this will have to be re-asessed.

Just ramping up the velocity and reducing the mass will also mean re-engineering the round mechanics or else we end up with a round that is too unstable to be accurate or too fast and stable to do other than knitting needle punches in the target. Most of the energy will be lost down range as it will either simply be a through and through with some upleasant but survivable temporary cavitation in the wound channel or it will be moving so fast that yaw and tumble will start to occur as or after the round has exited.

It's meeting the sweet spot between Kinetic Energy, Ballistic Co-efficient, round stability and round cross section.
 
I know high velocities raise issues, but that's where I see it going. You could solve that by using gain twist or very shallow twist in the barrel.
 
I know high velocities raise issues, but that's where I see it going. You could solve that by using gain twist or very shallow twist in the barrel.
Neither gain twist nor shallow rifling will solve the problems.

1. To drive projectiles to high speed, you need a lot of high-pressure gas. To drive larger projectiles to high speed, you need even more high-pressure gas.

2. To get the required amount of high-pressure gas, you must increase either the pressure or the volume of the case. This means a small case cannot drive large projectiles to high velocities.

3. To stabilize long projectiles, youi need a high rate of spin. Gain twist doesn't help because at the velocities in question, there is really no significant difference between the time the bullet gets fully "spun up" compared to a standard twist. You can't use shallow rifling, because the bullet, at it's high velocity will slimply strip the rifling. Ultimately, centriugal force takes over and bullets begin to disintegrate.
 
I didn't say it would solve all the problems, heck, I didn't even mean it would solve any of the problems (yes, I know I said it). And I said shallow twist, not shallow rifling. Anyway, that's just how I see it going. I could be (in fact, I probably am) wrong.
 
Socom has adopted the FN Scar and FN is currently building the order. This is not hypothetical AR change as suggested in early posts. The XM8 program has ben suspended due to budget restraints (for now) but the M16/M4 is being phased out.
 
Sorry, the M16/M4 is not being phased out. FN and Colt are still building new guns for the Army. The XM-8 is dead in the water for a number of reasons, not the least being an attempt by HK of back door procurement. Several member of congress were very unhappy about the possibility of adopting a new weapon without trials, or a competition in which US gun makers could compete for the contract. There were also technical problems with the rifle, like melting handguards.

The Army eventually is looking at replacing the rifle, but so far specifications are still being argued. The XM8 was is part of some ongoing testing, but according to the Army "The purpose of the shootoff is for assessing future needs, not to select a replacement for the M4".

Right now, the status of a replacement rifle for the M16/M4 is a bout the same as the OICW. They are thinking about it, and that's about it.

The SCAR is a limited procurement item, represent only a small number of rifles (by Army standards) and is being purchased using SOCOM 'off the shelf' procurement.
 
The next revolution should be reactionary.... 6mm Lee all around!:p Seems like the 6.5Grendel/6.8 SPC, Etc. were made obsolete in 1895....
 
Socom has adopted the FN Scar and FN is currently building the order. This is not hypothetical AR change as suggested in early posts. The XM8 program has ben suspended due to budget restraints (for now) but the M16/M4 is being phased out.

SOCOM has adopted the SCAR, but has done so to better tailor issue small arms to that organization's unique requirements, which are in some ways well outside those of the Big Army/Marines/etc., including things like suppressor use and training budgets that put wartime+ kind of round counts on weapons routinely during peacetime.

As for the XM8, it melted under sustained fire during troop trials. Its only real logic for adoption would be that it would provide a common platform alongside the kinetic energy portion of the OICW. With OICW dead in the water, it offered no improvement over the M16/M4 (despite HK advertising and lobbying claims to the contrary) and was actually a step backwards in a number of ways. We're better off with it being dead.

Like GunTech said, the M16/M4 ain't going anywhere any time soon. The reasoning is simple, and has been mentioned in this thread a number of times: what we have isn't broken, and none of the "fixes" bring anything new to the table, just modest changings of strengths and weaknesses.
 
The next revolution should be reactionary.... 6mm Lee all around! Seems like the 6.5Grendel/6.8 SPC, Etc. were made obsolete in 1895....

Truly there is very little new under the sun. I'm not sure on the 6mm Lee's numbers, but right now a bunch of people are spending a bunch of time and money trying to reinvent the 1920s era 276 Pedersen or late 1940s era 280 British round.
 
Truly there is very little new under the sun. I'm not sure on the 6mm Lee's numbers, but right now a bunch of people are spending a bunch of time and money trying to reinvent the 1920s era 276 Pedersen or late 1940s era 280 British round.

Indeed. After someone's initial comment, I started looking at new and propose rounds, and most of the new wonder rounds are old familiar ones, just repackaged: Smaller is certainly better, but we probably already can draw conclusions about performance.

7x46mm = 280 British = 276 Petersen = 7x57 Mauser (1893)

6.5 Grendel = 6.5x50 Arisaka (introduced 1892). The 6.5 Carcano is slightly too slow (2300 fps) and the Swede is slightly too high (2600 fps)

The 6.8 SPC seems somewhat unique.

One interesting thing I did not is that most of these rounds have the follwoing in common: a bullet of about 139 grains, fired at 2500 fps.
 
AR Platform

Stoner type weapon! Such as LR308 or AR10...
With a Railed stock, and with the various lengths and attachments.
You could supply all the soldiers and military with them.
More potent and a Nato round to boot..
308 yeah baby!!!!
 
Just stick the HK416 upper on the AR, and you're set. Problem solved. Maybe in 6.8, which is *surprise* the rough range of caliber the British were looking into for the L85, IIRC, based on their own tests--and then we ramrodded 5.56 down their throats. Eh, well.
 
Just stick the HK416 upper on the AR, and you're set. Problem solved.

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, my unit has some and we're having trouble getting even 4 MOA out of them. Their accuracy is just really nothing to brag about at all, grouping about twice as loose as the standard M4A1 used as a control gun when some guys tested them.

Maybe in 6.8, which is *surprise* the rough range of caliber the British were looking into for the L85, IIRC, based on their own tests--and then we ramrodded 5.56 down their throats. Eh, well.

They had the .280 round (heavier bullet slower compared to 6.8 Rem SPC, for comparison) but I thought by the time they'd gotten around to working up the L85 program they were preferring a high BC 4.85mm round (looks kind of like a hybrid between a 5.56mm round and a 5.45x39 round).
 
Thank you, HorseSoldier. The HK416 is turning out to actually be worse is many areas of performance than the standard M16 uppers currently in service. H&K's performance quality has really gone down in the last decade or more. They have been making under the table deals to get their products into police and military services without having to compete with other manufacturers. This is one reason why the XM8 project was cancelled after Congress found out about it, in addition the XM8 suffered from melting polymer parts. Similar melting polymer parts problems occured in Bosnia with the G36. When the latest NATO trials were held for a new handgun H&K didn't participate and instead tried to make another deal for contracts without having to prove their hardware worked. The CZ P-01 is the only handgun that passed the trials.

H&K is a marketing genius, but when it comes to pitting their products against the competition they avoid it at all costs. The more I learn about H&K, the more I want to stay away from them.
 
Wow, this thread is still going.

Haupmann, I've had several occasions to deal with HK reps. The company has some effed up attitudes too.

I asked one of their reps if they would ever be building the G36 and similar rifles for civilian sales again, particularly if they built their Georgia plant. His respose: "Why do civilians need assasult rifles?"

By contrast, FN is making their PS90, FS2000 and FiveseveN available to civilians.
 
Haupmann, I've had several occasions to deal with HK reps. The company has some effed up attitudes too.

I asked one of their reps if they would ever be building the G36 and similar rifles for civilian sales again, particularly if they built their Georgia plant. His respose: "Why do civilians need assasult rifles?"

Yet, another reason for me to stay away from their products. I've never been all that crazy about FN products, but I applaud their marketing practices.
 
As I mentioned earlier in this thread, my unit has some and we're having trouble getting even 4 MOA out of them. Their accuracy is just really nothing to brag about at all, grouping about twice as loose as the standard M4A1 used as a control gun when some guys tested them.
Well, in that case....the SCAR looks promising, though kinda ugly.
 
Back to the future! This is the impression I received recently while reading about the origins of the EM2 rifle Britain developed after World War 2. The EM2, for those unfamiliar with it, was a bullpup design intended to fire the .280 (7x46mm) round. British military officials believed that such a cartridge combined the best mix of controlability and power in a small package. Several decades later, we seem to be embracing many of their assumptions. Perhaps the old adage is true that the more things change, the more they stay the same.


Timthinker
 
6.5 Lapua on an AK variant platform....like the recoil-less AN-94
<http://news.webshots.com/photo/1513252728015913979OwBrhP>

something that doesn't need a super special powder to run....
6mm Lee Navy in a modern rifle based on a Drugonov.....semi-rimmed case
243 a great choice.
 
come on now

The 6.8 SPC is nothing more than a 25 or 30 Remington in .277...

6.8 SPC sounds way way better than a 25 or 30 remington..

go smaller in bullet diameter....6mm to 6.5mm
better sectional density
better wind bucking.....

6.5mm bullets go the extra distance....even with watered down loads....shocking results on Remington ballistic website...at 500 yards the .243 and 260 are 20" in drop better than the 6.8 SPC


<http://www.remington.com/products/ammunition/ballistics/comparative_ballistics_results.aspx?data=PRC260RB*PRC68R4*PRA243WA>
 
Until there is another grand revolution in propellants, all we have is a bunch of individuals trying to reinvent the wheel. Sorry if I'm not impressed by something that duplicates the ballistics of a 112 year old round, albeit in a shorter case and at higher pressures.:scrutiny:
 
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