What would you do?

[Warners]

What would you do?

I have an older 1911 A1 .45 made in Argentina under license from colt, marked DGFM-FMAP. Direccion General de Fabricaciones Militares (D.G.F.M.), the "Military Manufacturing Agency." Fabrica Militar de Armas Portatiles (F.M.A.P.), "Small Arms Factory". In the 1930’s, the Argentines secured license to manufacture their own .45’s.

I really like the gun, and I’m thinking about making some upgrades to it. I just got it back from the gunsmith who replaced the recoil spring and did a ramp/throat job on it to solve some feed/eject issues I was having with it. I haven’t had a chance to fire it since the work was done though. I am thinking specifically about a new barrel, trigger or trigger work, and some better (adjustable at least) sights. I think this work could easily add up to a few hundred dollars pretty quickly. So I guess the question is, “Is it worth it?”. It would still be cheaper than a new gun with comparable features, I guess.

What do you guys think? Any suggestions or recommendations?


Thanks in advance,

Warner

 

[bruzer]

Since you asked here are my thoughts. As long as it went bang when I pull the trigger I would shoot it as is. Of coarse my training involved everyone getting issued the same type weapon and shooting to qualify. No fancy trigger jobs, barrels, sights, etc. Just marksmanship training, a basic pistol and bullets. I have never had a gun that shoot so bad that I could blame the gun for any mistakes. Believe me these things had more rounds through them than I will ever shoot in my lifetime. Now go out and get some .45's down range.
Now if you are talking about getting into competition then that would be another story that I know nothing about.
Mike

 

[Warners]

Since you asked here are my thoughts. As long as it went bang when I pull the trigger I would shoot it as is. Of coarse my training involved everyone getting issued the same type weapon and shooting to qualify. No fancy trigger jobs, barrels, sights, etc. Just marksmanship training, a basic pistol and bullets. I have never had a gun that shoot so bad that I could blame the gun for any mistakes. Believe me these things had more rounds through them than I will ever shoot in my lifetime. Now go out and get some .45's down range.
Now if you are talking about getting into competition then that would be another story that I know nothing about.
Mike

I generally agree Mike...and thanks for the response. I was just looking for a way to make the gun a little nicer to shoot. I just bought a pre-lock Smith 686 (and just got it back from S&W after they did the "magnum recall" work on it). When I compare the trigger on this, or heck...even my C&R eligible CZ82, the trigger is just HORRIBLE. I'd really like to make it a little nicer. And as long as I'm doing that, I thought it might be fun to go through the other parts of the gun that I don't like as much as I would like to. It's really not for any purpose....and I don't want to compete....just want to trick out the gun a little bit to make it nicer to shoot. I'm definitely in the "hammers" group though....there are some things that I used to collect (fine art type), but guns is not one of them. I buy ones that I think fill a useful gap in what I have....nothing too fancy, and nothing that I'd be afraid to take out and shoot. In other words, no "collectibles" or safe queens, per se'.

Warner

 

[LNK]

Keep it....

Which service did it come from? Mine says "Aeronautica Argentina" on it as I think it was an Argentine Air Force issue. I have 2 1911's and I have the original sights on the 1927. I put a Kart NM barrel on it and replaced all springs. It shoots as accurately as I can with any other pistol I own. 2-3" at 25 yds.

I agree to shoot it as it is if it goes bang every time. Mine had almost completely worn lands and grooves, and the bushing fit(if you could call it that), was really loose in the slide, and you could move the barrel side to side 1/32" .

Good luck with what ever you do...

LNK

 

[Smokey Joe]

Collectibility...

is already boogered up on that Argentine 1911, due to the gunsmith modifications. You said you haven't shot it since getting it back--Well, for Pete's sake, take it out and run a bunch of rounds through it--See how it behaves with the modifications.

Then and only then would I consider further mods, if at all. The only question for you is, "How's she shoot for YOU?" since it's no longer much of a collectible.

If you don't like how she shoots, the next question is, do you want to mod this handgun some more, or move on and start all over with a new one.

That's your program as I see it.

In any case, good luck.

 

[Warners]

is already boogered up on that Argentine 1911, due to the gunsmith modifications. You said you haven't shot it since getting it back--Well, for Pete's sake, take it out and run a bunch of rounds through it--See how it behaves with the modifications.

Then and only then would I consider further mods, if at all. The only question for you is, "How's she shoot for YOU?" since it's no longer much of a collectible.

If you don't like how she shoots, the next question is, do you want to mod this handgun some more, or move on and start all over with a new one.

That's your program as I see it.

In any case, good luck.

Yeah....I bought it years ago and didn't even consider the "collectibility" of it. I just wanted a 1911 .45 and it was available. It's never going to be worth a fortune anyway. You think the ramp and throat job on it destroyed any collectibility though? Well then that removes any inhibitions I'd have about further mods I guess.

I will take it out and shoot it and see how it does. In any case though, does anyone have any recommendations on what type of trigger, sights, or barrel to use in the event that I DO decide to upgrade them?


Thanks guys,

Warner

 

[jr45]

I have the same gun. The only modification (besides duracoat) was to upgrade the sights (Novak)...was a big help/improvement.

 

[Smokey Joe]

Collectibility...

Warners--Re. collector value: The guns (or anything collectors collect, for that matter) that collectors prize above all others are the ones that were bought new and stored away pristine, in the original box, with the original factory grease, and all paperwork. Any step away from that, including (Horrors!) actually taking the gun out and using it, reduces the collector value.

Such things as holster wear, wear on the finish of a stock, wear on the blueing from sweaty hands, honorable nicks and dings gained in the field, which make a user-gun all the more prized, just detract from the value of a collector-gun. So does fixing those things--You can't restore collectibility by re-blueing or re-finishing; that just reduces it further!

The only exception I know of, is if the individual gun in question has special--and documented--provenance. (That's it's history, to us ordinary non-collectors.) Was it used or owned by someone famous? Was it there at an historic event? And can you prove it? If so, then collectors will trample each other in their rush to push wads of money at you for it.

Any sort of permanent gunsmith modification just about ruins the collector value of any but an extremely rare, old, experimental, or highly unusual specimen.

So, what we all should have done 50 years ago, was to purchase a valuable, high-quality, popular firearm, and squirrel it away--in its original packaging, mind you--and never use it. Today it'll be worth 10x what you paid for it. What a waste!

 

[Warners]

Warners--Re. collector value: The guns (or anything collectors collect, for that matter) that collectors prize above all others are the ones that were bought new and stored away pristine, in the original box, with the original factory grease, and all paperwork. Any step away from that, including (Horrors!) actually taking the gun out and using it, reduces the collector value.

Such things as holster wear, wear on the finish of a stock, wear on the blueing from sweaty hands, honorable nicks and dings gained in the field, which make a user-gun all the more prized, just detract from the value of a collector-gun. So does fixing those things--You can't restore collectibility by re-blueing or re-finishing; that just reduces it further!

The only exception I know of, is if the individual gun in question has special--and documented--provenance. (That's it's history, to us ordinary non-collectors.) Was it used or owned by someone famous? Was it there at an historic event? And can you prove it? If so, then collectors will trample each other in their rush to push wads of money at you for it.

Any sort of permanent gunsmith modification just about ruins the collector value of any but an extremely rare, old, experimental, or highly unusual specimen.

So, what we all should have done 50 years ago, was to purchase a valuable, high-quality, popular firearm, and squirrel it away--in its original packaging, mind you--and never use it. Today it'll be worth 10x what you paid for it. What a waste!

Agreed Smokey Joe. Like I said, I'm not a "collector" (of guns, anyway). I understand very well about original condition and all that. I bought this gun to shoot.

Warner

 

[Greg528iT]

having a smith perform some basic trigger work will do a LOT for trigger creep and shootability, and unless it's looked at with a magnifying glass really won't be visible. The smith will drop the trigger out, and clear any snags, hooks or other rough spots on the bow or machined guides. Shooting thousands of rounds will do the same. The smith will then dress the sear and hammer interface to the correct angles and offset, along with deburing everything in sight. OK it might look a little brighter than the old ozided surfaces. In 10-15 years anyone looking inside won't be able to tell when the stones were put to those parts, 1935 or 2011.
You can always buy new trigger parts, store the OEM ones away.. and if you ever want it back to OEM.. drop them back in.

 

[Warners]

I asked the gunsmith who did the work on the pistol about getting a new barrel. He said that if I were going to get a new barrel, it wouldn't make any sense not to improve the sights and trigger....which is why I asked about all 3.....

Warner

 

[Greg528iT]

So, what we all should have done 50 years ago, was to purchase a valuable, high-quality, popular firearm, and squirrel it away--in its original packaging, mind you--and never use it. Today it'll be worth 10x what you paid for it. What a waste!

If we knew exactly which gun to buy. Chances are if you took a 50 yo typical Colt 1911 pulled it out of it's original box, original everything, the collector market would give you a decent amount of the price of a 2011 Colt 1911, but not a LOT. yeah it'll be worth more than 10x paid but not 10x the $700 for a new colt. Better to have put your money into a IRA or money market

 

[SwampWolf]

You think the ramp and throat job on it destroyed any collectibility though? Well then that removes any inhibitions I'd have about further mods I guess.

Any alteration to a collectible will detract from its intrinsic value. That said, a "ramp and throat job" will have a minimal effect (compared to refinishing, different sights, etc.) on your pistol's collectibility status, so, if the pistol is truly worth much to a serious collector, "further mods" is something you might want to rethink.

 

[Greg528iT]

is the barrel shot out?
I'd start with trigger work a little massaging. Then go from there. Get it so you can pull the trigger consistantly,

 

[Warners]

If we knew exactly which gun to buy. Chances are if you took a 50 yo typical Colt 1911 pulled it out of it's original box, original everything, the collector market would give you a decent amount of the price of a 2011 Colt 1911, but not a LOT. yeah it'll be worth more than 10x paid but not 10x the $700 for a new colt. Better to have put your money into a IRA or money market

Well, if you were buying something 50 years ago as an investment, I would suggest it was Tiffany lamps and glass. People were throwing that stuff in the garbage 50 years ago. I think the world record for a Tiffany lamp today is somewhere around 8 million dollars. They REGULARLY sell for $100k plus, though.

Warner

 

[RSVP2RIP]

And lets pull the thread back on track....

I don't think you would hurt the collectablility if all that was done was a POLISHING of the ramp, but throating might. If you want to go full on accurizing, then you might just want to start with a new gun. For sights and barrel you are talking $200-400 in parts alone. I could see this project going $500 easy if you are having it done for you. Thats dangerously close to a new gun. If it has sentimental value and you want it to shoot better then do the work and forget about collector value, but for what you could sell the gun for and the cost of all the work involved, I think you would be better served by buying the gun you want it to be, used.

Here's one for sale with aftermarket sights and it is still listed for $575
http://www.gunsamerica.com/992055634/Guns/Pistols/1911-Pistol-Copies/Argentine_DGFM_FMAP_45_ACP.htm

 

[Smaug]

I would leave it as-is, and save that money towards a new gun.

You might be surprised, but I bet that work you're thinking about adds up to more than a few hundred. It might be dangerously close to the price of a new 1911 with the features you want.

By the way, where in the Chicago area are you? If you're in the north west suburbs, maybe we can meet up and go shooting some time. I'll let you try my Para GI Expert 1911. It is a bare-bones new 1911, and might be a good reference point for you.