What year? S&W 38 special ctg

[Lobo55]

I recently acquired this nickel plated CTG 38 special from a friend whose father was in law enforcement. Looking for year of mfr?
a)S&W 38 special
b)3” barrel
c)square
d)6
e) fixed
f)27529 on grip / 129026 on barrel

 

[Phil from Kansas]

If the logo on the grip is original to the gun, i suspect you have a european copy, perhaps Spanish.

 

[Lobo55]

Yeah I was wondering about that too looks like different serial numbers on frame and possible the barrel was changed out also..

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

First of all, CTG is not a model, it simply means Cartridge. That is how S&W and many other revolver makers marked the barrels to indicate what cartridge the revolver was chambered for.

You clearly have a 38 Special Smith and Wesson barrel, that is how S&W marked their barrels, right down to the little marks at either end of the caliber marking. The front sight is not original, S&W never put sights like that on their revolvers. And the barrel has been cut down from its original length, the caliber marking should be centered on it, not almost all the way to the front like it is.

Also, the number on the underside of the barrel and the number on the bottom of the butt should match. With Smith and Wesson the Serial Number of record was on the bottom of the butt. Revolvers of that time period had the same number stamped on the underside of the barrel and underneath the extractor star.

Those are most definitely not Smith and Wesson grips, the emblem on them looks like grips off a Crucelegui Hermanos revolver made in Eibar, Spain.

I checked the Serial Number on the bottom of the grip, and it does not show up on any K frame S&W revolvers.

I think you have a Spanish replica of a S&W revolver, made by Crucelegui Hermanos of Eibar, Spain.

Someone has put a cut down Smith and Wesson barrel on it and cobbled on a different front sight.

Just for kicks, I looked up the SN on the underside of the barrel, and the gun it came from was probably made around 1908 or so. I have a K frame S&W 38 Military and Police with a serial number 1180XX that shipped in 1908.

P.S. Just checked a little bit further. The Serial Number on the butt falls within the range of the Smith and Wesson 38 Military and Police 2nd Model (Model of 1902), made in 1902 and 1903. Here is a question for you: Is there a screw in the frame in front of the trigger guard? If no, then you may have a 38 M&P 2nd Model with a 38 M&P Model of 1905 barrel and Spanish grips.

If there is a screw in front of the trigger guard, it is not a Smith and Wesson frame. That model did not have the screw in front of the trigger guard. In that case, I suspect you have the Spanish copy I mentioned earlier.

P.P.S. It looks from here that the hammer and trigger are nickel plated. Smith and Wesson never nickel plated hammers and triggers, they were always color case hardened. Perhaps the colors faded, perhaps the gun has been refinished by someone other than S&W. Or perhaps it is Spanish. I have no idea how the Spaniards finished their hammers and triggers.

 

[Jonesy814]

I suspect a Spanish frame with a real S&W barrel, that has been cut down. The font used for the serial number is not one that S&W used, but I have seen it on other Spanish revolvers. Also it appears the barrel pin is missing. Possibly the hole in the frame is not right for the barrel
Is there a serial number on the cylinder face? The ejector rod looks very S&W which makes me wonder which gun the cylinder came from, if either

 

[Riomouse911]

Senor Bubbito hizo en mal trabajo en eso.

I wouldn’t shoot that from a Ransom rest with a ten foot lanyard...it’s far to cobbled together for my taste.

Stay safe.

 

[Lobo55]

Howdy

First of all, CTG is not a model, it simply means Cartridge. That is how S&W and many other revolver makers marked the barrels to indicate what cartridge the revolver was chambered for.

You clearly have a 38 Special Smith and Wesson barrel, that is how S&W marked their barrels, right down to the little marks at either end of the caliber marking. The front sight is not original, S&W never put sights like that on their revolvers. And the barrel has been cut down from its original length, the caliber marking should be centered on it, not almost all the way to the front like it is.

Also, the number on the underside of the barrel and the number on the bottom of the butt should match. With Smith and Wesson the Serial Number of record was on the bottom of the butt. Revolvers of that time period had the same number stamped on the underside of the barrel and underneath the extractor star.

Those are most definitely not Smith and Wesson grips, the emblem on them looks like grips off a Crucelegui Hermanos revolver made in Eibar, Spain.

I checked the Serial Number on the bottom of the grip, and it does not show up on any K frame S&W revolvers.

I think you have a Spanish replica of a S&W revolver, made by Crucelegui Hermanos of Eibar, Spain.

Someone has put a cut down Smith and Wesson barrel on it and cobbled on a different front sight.

Just for kicks, I looked up the SN on the underside of the barrel, and the gun it came from was probably made around 1908 or so. I have a K frame S&W 38 Military and Police with a serial number 1180XX that shipped in 1908.

P.S. Just checked a little bit further. The Serial Number on the butt falls within the range of the Smith and Wesson 38 Military and Police 2nd Model (Model of 1902), made in 1902 and 1903. Here is a question for you: Is there a screw in the frame in front of the trigger guard? If no, then you may have a 38 M&P 2nd Model with a 38 M&P Model of 1905 barrel and Spanish grips.

If there is a screw in front of the trigger guard, it is not a Smith and Wesson frame. That model did not have the screw in front of the trigger guard. In that case, I suspect you have the Spanish copy I mentioned earlier.

P.P.S. It looks from here that the hammer and trigger are nickel plated. Smith and Wesson never nickel plated hammers and triggers, they were always color case hardened. Perhaps the colors faded, perhaps the gun has been refinished by someone other than S&W. Or perhaps it is Spanish. I have no idea how the Spaniards finished their hammers and triggers.

Thanks Drift, I think you nailed it. Barrel looks shortened and the frame trigger guard has a screw in front of it. Hammer and trigger are color case hardened. So most likely a Spanish frame with S&W barrel you mentioned from early 1900’s. Is the screw in front of trigger guard for adjusting the trigger pull you think? In addition there appears to be a 3 digit number stamped on the crane on the inside facing the cylinder. Haven’t pulled it off yet to find out.

 

[Lobo55]

I suspect a Spanish frame with a real S&W barrel, that has been cut down. The font used for the serial number is not one that S&W used, but I have seen it on other Spanish revolvers. Also it appears the barrel pin is missing. Possibly the hole in the frame is not right for the barrel
Is there a serial number on the cylinder face? The ejector rod looks very S&W which makes me wonder which gun the cylinder came from, if either

Yes barrel pin is missing, no S/N on cylinder. Looks to have S/N on Crane facing the cylinder. And numbers 686 stamped on cylinder where rounds are chambered.

 

[Slamfire]

The nickle job and the rebarreling probably cost more than the pistol was worth.

I don't know if the reputation of pre WW2 Spanish pistols was due to Nationalism, or because they were as bad as the popular press made them out to be. But given the concept, that where there is smoke, there is fire, I would not shoot the thing. I would recommend never shooting +P in the thing, this was a standard pressure only pistol.

 

[WestKentucky]

I like the look of the gun, but with a couple questions circling it I would be pulling it apart to get it checked out. Spanish clone or not, I would be sorting out the known issues. If it’s a spanish gun then it has the right grips, but if it’s truly a S&W frame then I would get some S&W grips on it. The barrel not being pinned isn’t a huge ordeal to fix, but it needs fixed. A punch from each side can mark the location and then you can either drill or mill the pin location. That front sight isn’t right but it looks good so if it shoots to POA then I would leave it alone. Step #1 is to pull the grips off and see what marks are there. Compare to pictures of K frame smiths and Spanish copies. The Spanish guns are decent (not great) copies but there are differences. Next step is to pull the sideplate and see if there is any internal issues and to do a general deep cleaning. The barrel needs to be properly threaded in and I assume that it is, but it needs verified and the pin needs installed. Sounds like a lot, but really it’s just a thorough inspection aside from the barrel pin.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy Again

The number stamped on the frame under the yoke (crane) on a S&W revolver is an assembly number and does not mean anything. If we are talking about a Spanish frame I really do not know.

The screw in front of the trigger guard is not for adjusting anything.

There is a spring and spring plunger under the screw that exerts upward pressure on the cylinder stop. (The part that locks the cylinder in place for firing). You can see these parts laid out in this photo. Prior to 1905 Smith and Wesson revolvers had a slightly different mechanism and that screw was not present. So if there is no screw in front of the trigger guard there is a chance that it is an actual 38 Military and Police 2nd Model made between 1902 and 1903. The Serial Number on the butt would match the range of Serial Numbers for that model. Since there is a screw there, it is not a 38 Military and Police 2nd Model, that screw did not show up until 1905 and the SN on the butt would not match up with a 38 M&P made after 1905. Much later, sometime in the 1950s, that screw went away again, but we are not talking about a revolver from the 1950s.






There were a lot of copies of Smith and Wesson revolvers made in Spain at the time we are talking about. Some of them were very good copies. If it were a real S&W there would be various markings on it identifying it as such. You can see the one in the photo above has MADE IN USA stamped on the frame.


The markings on Smith and Wesson revolvers changed over the years. Some years the company trademark was stamped on the side plate, like this:






This K-22 from the 1930s has a small S&W trademark stamped on the frame.






So if your revolver was a real S&W, it would say so on it someplace.



Smith and Wesson has always guarded the legitimacy of their products rigorously. There were so many knock offs of S&W revolvers being imported into this country before WWII that for a time S&W obtained a trademark on their color Case Hardening of the hammer and trigger. Hammers at that time were stamped REG. U.S. PAT. OFF. like this, proving the gun was made by them. Triggers were also marked this way on the rear surface. After a while, the government rescinded the trademark, so S&W stopped marking the hammers this way.






Prior to that, during the late 1800s some European gun makers had the audacity to actually mark their counterfeit revolvers with the S&W name. International law was not developed enough at that time to prevent this, but Daniel Wesson did succeed in making one Belgian company stop this practice.

Anyway, I think it is probably a pretty safe bet that you have a Franken-Smith, cobbled together with a S&W barrel on a Spanish frame and mechanism.

 

[Old_Grouch]

Interesting gun despite, or perhaps more so, because of its nature.
I can't quite imagine why anyone would go to the trouble and expense of cutting down and fitting a S&W barrel to a Spanish frame though.

 

[Jonesy814]

As I said. The font used to stamp the serial number on the butt in no way resembles any font used by S&W. That and the grips leave absolutely no doubt in my mind that the frame is Spanish made.

 

[halfmoonclip]

This thread has been fascinating for the detective work. The why is another question, but given time and tools, tinkerers gonna tinker.
Moon

 

[OrangeCat]

Admitting that I am probably not the voice of reason here but I love it and would definitely shoot it if I could get a clean bill of health on it.

I doubt it would have hung around and had so much effort put into it if it was totally worthless. In my mind it's worth a trip to a gunsmith for a quick looksee. I think you have a pleasant surprise waiting for you.

 

[Monac]

If I had to guess what the logo on those grips is, I would say TAC, or Trocaola, Aranzabal y Cia. There are some pictures here, including a close-up of a grip medallion: https://www.gunvaluesboard.com/trocaola-aranzabal-y-cia-t.a.c.-revolvers-14052.html

I have had several old Spanish revolvers and have shot some of them but not others. The ones in 32 S&W Long and 8mm French Revolver don't worry me, because those are low powered cartridges.

But 38 Special? All I can say about that is, somewhere I have an old pamphlet where a couple of British guys recount how they tested an old Spanish revolver to destruction with overloaded rounds (I don't remember the caliber) in proof house facilities. They found that the revolver stretched into an un-fireable state before it burst, because it was made of soft steel, rather than brittle steel. I don't know if that's encouraging or not.

On the other hand, there was a long time poster here named JimK, since sadly departed. He was a very experienced gunsmith. He strongly advised against shooting any of these old Spanish revolvers in any caliber, considering them to be made of pot metal, by which he meant something similar to wrought iron or cast iron, or at best very poor steel.

 

[Phil from Kansas]

Maybe the reason that the barrell was replaced was a catastrophic failure that ruined the original barrell. If this was point of failure, upgrading might solve the problem, but I've learned to appreciate the value of putting together parts engineered to work together, as opposed to putting together parts that happen to fit.

 

[powwowell]

Very interesting read. Mr. Driftwood knows his S&W stuff.

 

[Lobo55]

Very interesting read. Mr. Driftwood knows his S&W stuff.

Yes it certainly appears so. I have added more pics and it gets more interesting. Serial number under grips and crane are 15686, stamped on inside of plate and ratchet are 686 last 3 numbers of crane and grips. The bottom of grip frame is 27529. And found “Spain” stamped behind trigger guard. Truly a “Frankenpistol”. Medallion not quite the same as the ones Monac referenced but definitely Spanish origin probably “Trocaola” found this reference for an Eibar Spanish model 92..
https://www.forgottenweapons.com/eibar-spanish-model-92-revolver/
Note the pivoting firing pin on hammer with roll pin also. And from what I can find the 38 S&W Special CTG barrel may have been manufactured in 1951.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy again

Nice that you have provided more photos.

If you had mentioned it had Spain stamped on the frame in the first place this whole conversation would have ended very quickly.

Smith and Wesson never used a V shaped hammer spring like that. Never, since 1857. Always a 'leaf' style hammer spring.

Colts, on the other hand, always used a V shaped hammer spring. Smith and Wesson on the left, Colt on the right.






As I mentioned before, with a Smith and Wesson, numbers stamped on the frame under the yoke (crane) are assembly numbers, not serial numbers. As the revolver went through various assembly processes, different parts went to different departments for more work, such as fitting or finishing. Assembly numbers were stamped on the parts so they could be married up again to the same frame during final assembly.

Smith and Wesson never stamped assembly numbers on the yoke in that position. You can see in this photo where the assembly number on the yoke was always stamped.






Notice there is no Rebound Slide in the Spanish revolver. Ever since 1905 S&W revolvers have always used the Rebound Slide to return the trigger to the forward position. The Rebound Slide is the shiny part below the hammer in this photo. The hammer block has been removed for clarity in this photo, it would be riding on the pin in the Rebound Slide. It is more complicated and therefor more expensive to put a Rebound Slide into a revolver, but it makes for a better double action trigger pull. Until the fairly recent change over to frame mounted firing pins, Centerfire S&W revolvers always had the firing pin (S&W actually calls it the 'hammer nose") mounted to the hammer with a rivet. This allows the firing pin to pivot up and down slightly. Some of the larger Smiths actually had a small spring in the hammer, to reposition the firing pin, but with most it can freely rotate a few degrees.






That is clearly not a Smith and Wesson Side plate. I suspect all that metal was removed to clear the V spring. This is a S&W Side Plate. Notice the assembly number stamped in recess for the hand. The hammer block has been positioned in the groove it rides in when the revolver is assembled.






Curious what makes you think your barrel is from 1951. As I mentioned earlier, I have a K frame S&W 38 Military and Police with a serial number 1180XX that shipped in 1908. That is reasonably close to your SN. As I said, S&W revolvers from this period had the SN stamped on the underside of the barrel and the underside of the extractor star, as well as the SN of record on the bottom of the butt. Also, the appearance of S&W markings varied over time. This is the caliber marking on the barrel of a 32-20 Hand Ejector that shipped in 1916. Notice the similarity to the caliber marking on your revolver, particularly the marks at each end of the legend.






This is the caliber marking on the barrel of a K-38 that shipped in 1950. Very different than the caliber marking on your barrel.

 

[Lobo55]

Thanks Drift, I was going by a serial number list I found but now realize those S/N’s would have been prefixed with a K designation. Seems reasonable that it’s closer to the 1916 barrel you referenced. The gun was pretty dirty didn’t notice the Spain stamp till I cleaned it up. Thanks for the help it was definitely an unusual find. I tried to find out from the guy that gave it to me what his deceased father knew about it and he said he didn’t know how his father acquired the weapon only that he was a retired State police officer so who knows what the story is behind it.

 

[Monac]

Take a look at picture #12 in this auction: https://www.gunbroker.com/item/898798355

Something like that may be why the revolver in this thread got a new barrel, and why JimK had a low opinion of these Spanish revolvers made before the Spanish Civil War. The gun in the auction looks very good, but that is one sad forcing cone.

 

[GooseGestapo]

Another thing that could have occurred is a squib sticking a bullet in the barrel being followed by a normal round. Result is usually either a bulged or split barrel.
Donor barrel likely from destroyed S&W. Gunparts Corp. gets a lot of their parts from guns court ordered torched.