What's a grain... why do we measure with it?

[10 Ringer']

Okay, so at least the concensus in 1970s America was that switching over to the metric system was just too difficult, but why bullet and casing measurements are made in grains is beyond me. I was wondering if someone would explain 1) what a grain is actually equivilant to in an understandable measure -metric or English system- and 2) a little bit of history as to where "grains" comes from and why we use it instead of something as precise for small weight measurements as metric? Thanks.

 

[Nightcrawler]

I'd like to know how many grains are in an ounce. I can never remember.

I'm willing to bet that the unit of measurement came from, like, grains of rice, or wheat, or something.

 

[Hkmp5sd]

1 grain is 0.0648 grams

OR

1 gram is 15.43 grains

OR

1 ounce is 437.5 grains

OR

1 grain is 0.00228 ounces

OR

1 pound is 7000 grains

 

[Kruzr]

"The grain was the earliest unit of mass and is the smallest unit in the apothecary, avoirdupois, Tower, and Troy systems. The early unit was a grain of wheat or barleycorn used to weigh the precious metals silver and gold. Larger units preserved in stone standards were developed that were used as both units of mass and of monetary currency."

7000 grains to the pound in Avoirdupois.......which is what we use.
437.5 grains per ounce in Avoirdupois (16 oz/lb.)

5760 grains to the pound in the Troy system.
480 grains per Troy ounce. (12 oz./lb.)

 

[CWL]

The basic unit of weight in the British system is the grain - based on the weight of a grain of barley (but note that money was based on the grain of wheat - and that three grains of barley weigh the same as four of wheat). This grain is the troy grain - there is no other weight of the same name.

Quote taken from here:

http://home.clara.net/brianp/weights.html

 

[telomerase]

Actually, shotgunners...

...measure in drams, a unit even more peculiar than grains.

Anyway if you're on the Internet you can find conversion charts easily enough.

 

[Archie]

The REASON we use grains....

It's the handiest size unit for bullets and powder charges.

For instance, 3 grains of Bullseye is 0.1943967 grams or 0.0068571 ounces. 50 grains of 4895 is 3.2399455 grams or 0.1142857 ounces.

Bullets aren't as bad. 230 grain bullet is 14.9037493 grams or 0.5257143 ounces.

With grains, one can deal in whole units (well, down to tenths at times) instead of .0007815 somethings.

 

[Standing Wolf]

...the concensus in 1970s America was that switching over to the metric system was just too difficult...

It wasn't too difficult: it was just stupid.

 

[M67]

With grains, one can deal in whole units (well, down to tenths at times) instead of .0007815 somethings.

This from a country that thinks 19/27 of an inch is a convenient measurement.
Archie, if 3 grains is better than 0.1943967 grams, then surely 1 gram must also be better than 15,432099 grains?

It wasn't too difficult: it was just stupid.

In every other country on the face of the earth schoolchildren learn how use the metric system before they are 8. In the US, rocket scientists smash a probe into a million pieces on the surface of Mars because they couldn't figure out how to divide and multiply by ten... There is only one possible explanation, the system is stupid.

Actually, the metric system is probably the only good ting ever to come out of France. The fact that presumably intelligent people like 10 Ringer and Nightcrawler, who can both spel and tipe, have to ask how many grains there are in an ounce, says quite a bit about the English system, and why even the English have converted.

The metric system is neither difficult nor stupid. All you have to do is figure out how to move the decimal point. But there is of course the argument to end all discussion: "Not invented here". And if God had intended Americans to use the metric system, He would have given them 10 fingers... no flames please, I'm just paraphrasing one of the moderators on this very forum. I won't mention names in case she doesn't want to be confronted with such statements from her past.

 

[C.R.Sam]

What Archie said....Grains are handier for small masses or weights.

Shotshells have long been loaded by weight of powder, in grains. With the loads often expressed in Drams equivalant. Drams a bulk measure from the old days of using calibrated scoops of black powder.

The rocket failed not because of an inability to use base ten but by virtue of some specs being written with inch measurement and others written with metric measurement. And the discrepency not being noted during producton.

Base ten , metric , is good.
Base six, in many cases is more natural and far older but rarely used except in precise navigation. Degrees, minutes, seconds etc.

Sam

 

[Oracle]

Grains are used in measuring powder, bullets, etc. probably because that's how it's been done for a long time, and we just continue to use the same system, on the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" principle.

 

[Kobun]

And if God had intended Americans to use the metric system, He would have given them 10 fingers...

HAHAHA
This board is getting funnier every day!
Why watch TV when you can read all the stuff you guys come up with!

 

[Majic]

The difficulty in changing over to the metric system in USA failed because of all the conversions needed to make the change. The system itself is simple, but converting required numerous factors to be used to address all of the different units of measure.

 

[Parker Dean]

IMO, the real reason that the US failed to convert to the metric system is that no one here wanted it. The whole episode felt like it was being rammed down our throats whether we liked it or not. So much so that sentiments against changing were expressed in much the same manner "cold dead hands" is now.

 

[Nightcrawler]

Bluntly.

What difference does it make whether or not our road signs are in miles or kilometers?

Scientists and such use metric units for measure. So does the military (except in things like demolitions calculations, in which case the entire doctrine was done in imperial units, and converting to metric would be more trouble than it's worth).

Basically, converting to the metric system would be more trouble than it's worth. The expense of replacing every road sign in the country alone would be staggering.

If Europe is mad that we won't fall in and be just like them...well, so much the better.

And, frankly, grains IS more convenient for bullet weights, and the entire doctrine and study of developing cartridge loadings in the US is based on imperial units. Again, converting would be more trouble than it's worth.

And 230 grains is a lot easier to use than 14.9037493 grams.

 

[WheelMan]

How about 149 decigrams? Is that better?

 

[Dave P]

Okay, so at least the concensus in 1970s America was that switching over to the metric system was just too difficult

So why are my kids still struggling with this alien concept in school??

 

[M67]

If Europe is mad that we won't fall in and be just like them...well, so much the better.

Sorry to disappoint you, Nightcrawler. We couldn't care less. Don't confuse "I care" with "I enjoy yankin' your chain".

And 230 grains is a lot easier to use than 14.9037493 grams.

Except that a "metric" 230-grainer would weigh 15 grams.
If you want to figure out the muzzle energy of a 230 grain bullet, you first have to find out that 230 grains is the same as 0.032857143 pounds. 15 grams is the same as 0.015 kg.

But you are right, it makes no difference which units we use, as long as we are all on the same page. The trouble arises if different measurements are mixed up, as the Jet Propulsion Laboratory did. Yes, Sam, I know what happened, I just tried to be sarcastic.

Because I read American literature on the subject and use a mix of American made and European made reloading supplies and equipment, I actually use a mix of English and metric measurements myself. I live in a country that has been metric for more than 130 years and never used the English system in the first place. I still know how many grains there are to the pound and how many inches to the foot - and I know how to convert that to units that actually has some meaning in the real world.

There are remnants of several systems for counting and measuring still in use today:
Base five - the way we count by making four lines with a diagonal for every fifth.
Base twelve - dozen.
Base twenty - score. In Danish and French they still count using 20 as an "assisting" base number.
Base sixty - the clock, the circle, a five thousand year old heritage from the Babylonians.
Base two, base sixteen - computer nerd stuff without a historical connection that I know of.

I'm sure there are lots of other examples. And when it comes to people, some are of course just base.

 

[BrokenPaw]

This thread reminds me of a footnote in Neil Gaiman & Terry Pratchett's Good Omens, which is a marvelous book if you actually have a sense of humour:

NOTE FOR YOUNG PEOPLE AND AMERICANS: One shilling = Five Pee. It helps to understand the antique finances of the Witchfinder Army if you know the original British monetary system:
Two Farthings = One Ha'penny. Two Ha'pennies = One Penny. Three Pennies = A Thrupenny Bit. Two Thrupences = A Sixpence. Two Sixpences = One Shilling, or Bob. Two Bob = A Florin. One Florin and One Sixpence = Half a Crown. Four Half Crowns = Ten Bob Note. Two Ten Bob Notes = One Pound (or 240 pennies). One Pound and One Shilling = One Guinea.
The British resisted decimalised currency for a long time because they thought it was too complicated.

Just my 0.0079365079365079365079365079365079 guinea.
-BP

 

[Penforhire]

The same argument that grains are convenient because of whole number use makes an even better argument for milligrams (mg), a unit I often use at work. I say boycott grains!

Too bad America hasn't been able to go metric. SI units really do make more sense.

 

[STW]

The basic unit of weight in the British system is the grain - based on the weight of a grain of barley

As an aside, shoe sizes are based on the length of a grain of barley, suggesting that barley must have been a lot more important than it is now.
(It just occurred to me that beer drinkers may think barley mighty important even today.)

 

[Nightcrawler]

There IS a lot of American tradition involved, too, and like I said, we're all on the same page anyways, so it really doesn't matter what units our roads are measured in.

Can you imagine a bunch of American bikers talking about how fast their Harleys will go [snooty oxford accent]"zero to one hundred kilometres per hour"[/snooty oxford accent]?

Just doesn't seem RIGHT.

But, of course, if you WANT to use the metric system, knock yourself out. Your car's speedometer almost certainly has kilometers on it, and you can measure your reloading stuff in milligrams and your muzzle energy in joules if you want. No one's stopping you.

But, I think in miles. So I use miles. *Shrug*

 

[Oleg Volk]

After 14.5 years in the US, I still think in metric units...

 

[Archie]

M67, you have a valid point.

But so do I.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
With grains, one can deal in whole units (well, down to tenths at times) instead of .0007815 somethings.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This from a country that thinks 19/27 of an inch is a convenient measurement.

Hey! The barrel on my revolver is 2 7/19 inches! Show a little respect.

Archie, if 3 grains is better than 0.1943967 grams, then surely 1 gram must also be better than 15,432099 grains?

I prefer using significant figures without exponents. So, FOR THIS PARTICULAR TASK, I prefer 3 grains to 194 x 10^-3 grams. Perhaps as Penforhire suggested, milligrams would be suitable.
There are many of us US types who would be aghast at dumping 194 units of Bullseye into a 38 Special casing, but we would adapt. Eventually.

The metric system is neither difficult nor stupid. All you have to do is figure out how to move the decimal point.

M, I have to agree with you about the ease of the metric system. I used to be an embarkation NCO and dealt with size of boxes and vehicles and such relative to the size of openings and storage areas.
I can well attest to the difficulty of determining the volume of a room that is "X feet, x inches by Y feet, y inches by Z feet, z inches". (I converted to decimal feet.) It would be so much easier in meters.

Actually, the bruhaha in the 70s was rather late; Thomas Jefferson suggested we switch to metric at the time of the American Revolution. Our revolutionaries could deal with getting rid of King George, but balked at dumping the inch.

There is a problem of conversion. All the reloading data (manuals) I have is listed in english units. Most show case diagrams in both systems. (Okay, the Norma bullets have gram weights as well.) My scale is calibrated in grains, and will convert to grams.
There is the difficulty of mechanics' tools. Most American cars are made in english units. I think that is slowly changing, but it won't be done with a magic wand.
People also are slow to change because the english system is "familiar". Most folks really don't know how much a pound weighs, but they think they do. Most folks can estimate a foot of lenth and come within 10-15 %. No one uses rods or furlongs anymore, except for horse race enthusiasts.

Finally. I agree the metric system is superior. However, I refuse to trade my 45 ACP for an 11.48 SMP (Standardised Metric Pistol)!

 

[Bruce H]

The only place grains are still used for measure in in firearms as far as I can tell. How is this a bad thing? We have our own unit of measure that we all comprehend. Very few are at a loss when hearing the term. Why complicate something that can be very dangerous if not followed properly?