What's out there for double rifles?

[TTv2]

Not looking to buy one, but when I think of the concept of a double rifle I'm of the opinion that it's best utilized when in a muzzleloader for the obvious reason of a second shot without spending a minute to reload. The other aspect of a muzzleloading double is they can be bought for quite a bit less than most umm "quality" made cartridge doubles. I'm sure Baikals double rifles are decent, but they're not even close to what Pedersoli makes with their Kodiak.

Which, speaking of the Kodiak, that is the only double rifle muzzleloader I know of, yet I'm sure there are others out there. Tell me about them and what do you think about double rifle muzzleloaders in general?

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Pedersoli Kodiak



It's available as muzzleloader in .50/.50 and .72/.72. There were earlier models (iirc) that were .50/12 gauge.
Pedersoli also makes this in a modern rifle in either .45-70 or .450 Nitro Express.

Now there is a company called Chaszel that apparently makes 12 gauge adapters, full barrel length, in .45-70, 1:20 twist rate rifling



Which would be cool in a 12 gauge SxS if one could get them sighted in. EVEN COOLER would be if they could make them so a gunsmith could convert a caplock SxS into a rifle/shotgun or double rifle by sleeving one barrel or both. They use modern ammo, but I wouldn't have a problem loading up BP cartridges and using one in a BP breech loader, especially since they often have one barrel that's pitted..., could resurrect an old gun for another generation.

LD

 

[DM~]

Every DR muzzle loader I've been around, wasn't regulated worth a beans, pretty much useless to me.

DM

 

[whughett]

https://mikebeliveau.com/ check out this guy He built a double that had revolving barrels. He stocked it but I believe the barrels/receiver was available as a kit.

 

[ThomasT]

Every DR muzzle loader I've been around, wasn't regulated worth a beans, pretty much useless to me.

DM

I believe the Pedersoli guns have sights for both barrels to help with sight regulation.

 

[DM~]

I believe the Pedersoli guns have sights for both barrels to help with sight regulation.

I've seen rifles like that, what a joke!

I guess that's one answer to poor quality...

DM

 

[ThomasT]

I've seen rifles like that, what a joke!

I guess that's one answer to poor quality...

DM

Maybe so. But I guess it would work and be better than a gun that shot to two different POI. In the old Reloader magazine Ross Seyfried had a couple of articles on regulating double rifles. You may still be able to find some back copies from Rifle/Handloader Magazine.

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

CVA also made a double rifle in .50 cal. The whole thing about double rifles is what load it was regulated for. Keep in mind these were somewhat close range guns, offering a fast follow-up second shot. Most were regulated to hit both barrels at same aim point around a hundred yards. 2 inch groups were considered decent accuracy. My CVA likes 65 grains of powder under a round ball in the right barrel and 75 grains in the left. Accuracy is reasonable at 100 yards.

 

[TTv2]

Pedersoli Kodiak

View attachment 981987

It's available as muzzleloader in .50/.50 and .72/.72. There were earlier models (iirc) that were .50/12 gauge.
Pedersoli also makes this in a modern rifle in either .45-70 or .450 Nitro Express.

Now there is a company called Chaszel that apparently makes 12 gauge adapters, full barrel length, in .45-70, 1:20 twist rate rifling

View attachment 981989

Which would be cool in a 12 gauge SxS if one could get them sighted in. EVEN COOLER would be if they could make them so a gunsmith could convert a caplock SxS into a rifle/shotgun or double rifle by sleeving one barrel or both. They use modern ammo, but I wouldn't have a problem loading up BP cartridges and using one in a BP breech loader, especially since they often have one barrel that's pitted..., could resurrect an old gun for another generation.

LD

If you read my post you'd see I know about the Pedersoli Kodiak. As to the Chaszel inserts, FortuneCookie45LC on Youtube has done some videos featuring them and has had very good success with the .45-70 hitting to POA from both single shot and over/under shotguns.

IDK how someone is going to get them inserts into a percussion shotgun.

 

[DM~]

Maybe so. But I guess it would work and be better than a gun that shot to two different POI. In the old Reloader magazine Ross Seyfried had a couple of articles on regulating double rifles. You may still be able to find some back copies from Rifle/Handloader Magazine.

I don't need to read about it, I've regulated quite a few DR's in a past life, and I'm glad to now have all of that behind me!

ANY combo gun or DR that's isn't properly regulated, is border line worthless to me... I just don't enjoy nor do I want to own ANY firearm that I have to aim over here, to hit over there!!

DM

 

[Loyalist Dave]

IDK how someone is going to get them inserts into a percussion shotgun.

If you read my reply, you'd see that I was suggesting the company make them to be fitted by a gunsmith inside the barrel(s) of a SxS..., meaning such a product does not yet exist, but I think it should.

LD

 

[TTv2]

ANY combo gun or DR that's isn't properly regulated, is border line worthless to me... I just don't enjoy nor do I want to own ANY firearm that I have to aim over here, to hit over there!!

DM

I feel the same way in regards to single action revolvers with fixed sights. I mean, why bother holding off a target to hit it when I could get an adjustable sighted revolver?

Double rifles... I mean, if you could get the sights set for the POA to match the POI for one barrel, then you'd just have to know the holdover for the other barrel.

Apparently the Kodiak made by Pedersoli does away with that issue by using two different rear sights. Dunno why you would hate having two sets of rear sights to fix a known issue with double rifles.

 

[TTv2]

I just remembered that Great Gun in the Czech Republic makes a .45 over/under double rifle:

 

[noelf2]

I've never been interested in a double percussion rifle, but might if my state allowed it for muzzleloader season. Only one shot allowed here in VA, so have to make it count. I really like double percussion shotguns, and have a few of those.

 

[magyars4]

I occasionally see older muzzle loading drillings or cape guns for sale...

 

[Jim Watson]

I recall when the NRA tested the Kodiak, they stumbled on loads that regulated to one sight.
Loads. They found a right barrel load and a different left barrel load that shot together.

Jackrabbit mentions that sort of thing.

Once upon a time, it was common to put sights on a double shotgun, adjust them for a slug from one barrel and load the other with buckshot. The Kodiak Cape Gun would be good for that.

whughett describes the pivot breech or "rollover" double of an earlier era. Repros are expensive.

 

[arcticap]

Traditions imported an over/under double rifle named the "Traditions Express O/U".
It's a fast twist .50 inline, and what makes it unique is that the collar attaching the barrels at the muzzle have adjustable set screws to help regulate the point of impact.
It was designed by Fausti of Italy, uses 209 primers and is rated for 150 grain powder charges.
Hovey Smith used one in Africa.
After only 2 years of production in 2008-09 they were being sold on clearance for $799.

https://hoveysknivesofchina.com/2015/12/03/traditions-faustis-double-muzzleloader-as-a-safari-gun/

https://www.sportsmansguide.com/pro...ess-double-black-powder-muzzleloader?a=582537

https://www.chuckhawks.com/traditions_express_article.htm

"The Express has an adjustable top barrel that tunes with an Allen wrench to line up with the bottom barrel’s point of impact.
A “barrel jack” has four adjustable screws that encircle the end of the top barrel, allowing it to be adjusted in relation to the bottom barrel. This is done more or less by dead reckoning through repeated shots.
The first step is to sight in the bottom barrel, which corresponds to the front trigger. I sighted the barrel to hit 2 inches high at fifty yards. The top barrel was not as difficult to sight in as I imagined it would be. To get the barrel to shoot higher and to the left, I reduced the tension on the top two screws and increased the tension on the bottom two, a half turn at a time with an extra quarter turn on my 8 0’clock screw. Three shots later I had barrel impacts within an inch of each other. You generally want to pick a load and stay with it, but the beauty of this double is that you can make a deer rifle into a big game rifle by sighting in new loads."

 

[DM~]

Apparently the Kodiak made by Pedersoli does away with that issue by using two different rear sights. Dunno why you would hate having two sets of rear sights to fix a known issue with double rifles.

IF, it's a "known" issue, FIX IT!!

DM

 

[TTv2]

IF, it's a "known" issue, FIX IT!!

DM

Gee, then the price for the gun would probably double or triple and nobody would buy it.

 

[DM~]

Gee, then the price for the gun would probably double or triple and nobody would buy it.

Someone would buy it, like me, who doesn't like halfazzed firearms! I'd rather have a few "quality" firearms than a closet full of halfazzed low quality guns. lol

It reminds me of one time where a guy was ripping on me for what he "figured" my Drilling was worth, then later showed a pict. of his gun rack, full of handys that totaled waaay more than what a Drilling like mine cost!! Now, that was funny!! lol

DM

 

[arcticap]

Hovey Smith made a video about his trip to Africa.
He shot a cape buffalo, ostrich and a gazelle.

.

 

[tark]

I've seen rifles like that, what a joke!

I guess that's one answer to poor quality...

DM

If you had ever actually HELD a Pedersoli you would know that quality is top notch. I had one in .50 cal and both barrels shot reasonably well to the same point of aim, using just one sight. I'm talking 3" at fifty yards. Two sights are a simple ( not cheap ) solution to having to actually regulate both barrels to use only one sight. Would you rather they did the actual regulation and then charged a couple of thousand more for the gun?

 

[arcticap]

One of the articles mentioned that the Traditions Express adjustment system was designed to be regulated to 100 yards.
There's less chance that the adjustment screws will regulate it beyond a reasonable distance.
With a side by side, there would probably be some distance limitations regarding how well the barrels can be regulated.
And the regulation wouldn't account for different projectiles like a manual adjustment system could be fine tuned for.

Pedersoli made a .54 swivel rifle from 1994 - 1999 that they were considering reintroducing in 2019, but it hasn't materialized yet.
This thread has a link to an article about it. --->>> https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...swivel-o-u-rifle-chrome-howdah-45-410.848414/

 

[DM~]

Would you rather they did the actual regulation and then charged a couple of thousand more for the gun?

I thought I already made it clear, I'd rather have ONE that is RIGHT, than 4 or 5 that isn't.

SO, the answer is, IF it cost a couple thousand for THEM to get it right, then maybe they need some new workers, because I can send a double to a TOP gunsmith and last I asked him, he was charging around $700.00 to regulate them...

DM

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

Where these manufacturers go wrong on regulating sxs barrels is not stamping the projectile weight, and the amount of powder, on the barrels, I know, taking the time to do that would run the cost up, however they could give a starting point to work from. Also they could tell you if the prototype that the gun was designed from shot well with ball or slug. Keep in mind that this type of rifle was originally intended to have that quick follow up shot on something big and nasty trying to roll a hunter up into a little meatball, long range accuracy seems a moot point when that irritated critter is almost on top of you filled with bad intentions. Point is find the accuracy and convergance point load and stick with it.