What's the deal with +P +P+ etc

[knuckles]

Ok, one last post and I'll leave you all alone for a little while. I have a used SW Model 64 .38 Special and I just acquired a SW 637 .38 Special +P. I asked the dude at the GS if I could shoot +P in my Model 64 and he said 'well, you can but I wouldn't do it all the time'. Is this true? Essentailly when I pressed him on the matter, he said that I should use standard range ammo for paper hole punching but that the my Model 64 could handle the higher pressure of the +P 'in a pinch'. True or false? As usual, I want to be safe here.

Also, in a related matter, I have a 92FS (9mm of course) and I wanted to know if it's ok to put +P or +P+ in my 92. How about a Kahr CW9? Same deal?

And finally, after all of that, what is the difference between +P, +P+ and non +?

I apologize if this has been answered somewhere else, I simply could not find it. Thanks in advance...

 

[SaxonPig]

In my experience and opinion current factory +P .38 Special ammo is actually quite mild in pressure and the performance is hardly stunning. I consider it to be a decent plinking load and certainly nothing that would concern me in a quality revolver like a K frame S&W.

Others will disagree and the fact that there are so many differing opinions should be a hint that there is much myth and misinformation. I go with what I see and after shooting a great deal of this ammo in a variety of guns and doing considerable research I see factory +P as being a mid-range load. I do not consider a 125 grain bullet at 925 FPS to be particularly high performance.

On the +P+ 9mm ammo, I routinely shoot this in my 659 S&W but this is a very stout gun. I would suspect a M92 would have no trouble but I really don't know for sure.

 

[XDn00b101]

Sad people need +P. IMO seems the caliber is not good enough if you need special ammo with added pressure to compensate for lack of knock down power.

 

[distra]

Check this link out. It gives a little more detail on +P, and +P+.
http://www.frfrogspad.com/miscellk.htm

 

[usp9]

distra ,
Great link, thanks.

 

[Keith Wheeler]

I don't shoot wheel-guns, but apparently the creation of .38 +P+ was a way to get more power for the cops when the concept of an officer carrying a magnum became politically incorrect.

I'm more familiar with submachine-guns. In that world +P+ 9mm is subgun ammo, loaded very hot simply because a subgun can handle it, a pistol can not. The Brits for their L2A3s, the Israelis for their Uzis, and I'm sure lots of other folks with 9mm SMGs.

 

[Tim L]

I know it's not an S&W model 64, but the manual for my Colt SF-VI states that a limited diet of +P .38 specials is ok. the problem is that too much +P causes the gun to loosen up and the timing becomes an issue. As far as +P+ Springfield says not to use any in their 1911s, again because of increased wear. Glock and some other brands apparently don't have a problem with it. granted in both cases it is probably there because the lawyers say so.

Tim

 

[knuckles]

Thanks Distra that is exactly what I needed. I am going to copy that info in a quote in case someone needs that info long after that link no longer works.

Q. What is +P and +P+ ammunition?

A. "Plus P" and "Plus P Plus" ammunition is simply ammunition loaded to higher than normal SAAMI (Sportings Arms & Ammunition Makers Institute) pressure specifications. "Plus P-ing" was first done with law enforcement pistol ammunition in an effort to wring the last bit of power out of a cartridge. For most rounds the gain in performance is minimal and leads to increased wear and tear on the firearm. The +P+ ammunition is loaded to even higher pressure levels than +P. +P+ loadings are generally limited to "law enforcement sale only." The SAAMI pressures for pistol ammunition are given below. Note that there are no SAAMI specifications for +P+ loads, but by general industry agreement they are about 15 percent greater than +P. Note that there are no SAAMI specifications for +P pistol loads other than those shown below. (The .38 Super is frequently listed as "+P" but that is just to differentiate between the "Super" round and the original .38ACP round.)

seems the caliber is not good enough if you need special ammo

As for the quote above, I have what I have and would like to make the best of it using the best info I can get. When I can afford a 45 ACP, I'll get one, until then...

EDIT: BTW, thanks everyone that responded with info.

 

[Technosavant]

If you want the REAL scoop on what is safe to shoot out of that Model 64, call S&W themselves; if you give them the serial #, they should be able to tell you if +P is safe to fire out of the gun.

 

[Technosavant]

Sad people need +P. IMO seems the caliber is not good enough if you need special ammo with added pressure to compensate for lack of knock down power.

Or maybe it has to do with the cartridge itelf being a bit dated, and with advances in metallurgy, guns can handle higher pressures from a given cartridge. .38spl, 9mm, and .45ACP all have +P loadings. .40S&W and 10mm don't have one- they're comparatively young compared to the others.

A +P loading doesn't mean that the original cartridge was garbage, it just means that things have improved since the original specifications were developed, and guns can handle things a bit hotter.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

be careful

in my ignorant youth, not to be confused with my ignorant middleage, i loaded Plus p's into a light framed 38 bent it outa time. as a result it shaved lead off when fired.When i 2 handed it i picked up a load of lead in my left hand. took years to get rid of the tatoo. I lacked anyone expeienced to teach me did it trial and error.With firearms thats not a very good thing and why i love sites like this.

 

[Firethorn]

Technosavant, it IS possible to get .40S&W in +P varients, I haven't seen 10mm, but then, 10mm can be considered a magnum round in and of itself.

But yeah, the major reason for +P ammo for various older calibers, why it's a lot easier to find, is that metallurgy and general construction methods have advanced considerably in the last 100 years, even smokeless powders have advanced considerably, allowing these older calibers to be 'refreshed' in newer guns cable of handling the higher pressures and shock.

 

[Big Gay Al]

Sad people need +P. IMO seems the caliber is not good enough if you need special ammo with added pressure to compensate for lack of knock down power.

Then I guess you can put .45ACP in that category too, since there are some +P loadings for it as well.

 

[andyjason]

i may be wrong

but the last time that i looked at my wifes owners manual to her 92f it said not to put any +p or +p+ ammo in it. i believe that its becouse of the aluminum frame. but like i said i may be wrong.

 

[RNB65]

And finally, after all of that, what is the difference between +P, +P+ and non +?

For each caliber, SAAMI lists a pressure range (minimum and maximum) that is acceptable for the caliber. Cartridges that generate pressures within that range are considered SAAMI compliant.

Regular cartridges (no +) are loaded to generate pressures near the low to middle section of the SAAMI pressure range.

+P cartridges are loaded to generate pressures near the maximum of the SAAMI pressure range, but still within the range. +P catridges are considered to be SAAMI compliant since they fall within the SAAMI pressure range, but should only be fired from guns that have been extensively tested with pressures near the top of the SAAMI range.

+P+ cartridges are loaded to pressures that exceed the SAAMI pressure range and are not considered to be SAAMI complaint. Shoot +P+ at your own risk as they violate gun warranties and could cause it to explode in your face.

It's interesting to note that I've read several magazine articles recently which claim that commercial handgun ammo has gotten progressively weaker over the years. Rounds that were considered standard .38Special and 9mm loads 50 years ago are considered +P loads today to get the same muzzle velocity/energy levels. I don't know if it's true, but I'm guessing lawyers are somehow involved.

 

[Technosavant]

Firethorn, I'm amazed that anybody has a +P version of .40S&W. That thing is plenty high pressure as it is. Is that an official SAAMI spec, or is it something a marketer came up with?

 

[Optical Serenity]

Never heard of a .40 +P, where are they?

 

[Josh Aston]

There is no such thing as .40 S&W +P. The companies that label there .40 as such are using it as a marketing gimmick nothing more. CorBon is the first company that comes to mind. The ammo is just loaded closer to SAAMI specs than the majority of factory ammo, it isn't +P though. Loading it above SAAMI specs would not be the best move for any company legally speaking. 9mm, .38 special, and .45 acp are the only handgun rounds that have an actual +P SAAMI specification. +P+ rounds are generally either foreign made subgun ammo or restricted to LE only, or once again just a marketing gimmick.

 

[Firethorn]

+P cartridges are loaded to generate pressures near the maximum of the SAAMI pressure range, but still within the range. +P catridges are considered to be SAAMI compliant since they fall within the SAAMI pressure range, but should only be fired from guns that have been extensively tested with pressures near the top of the SAAMI range.

I have previously read that +P is up to 10% over the SAAMI maximum pressure

+P+ can more or less ignore SAAMI specs.

Firethorn, I'm amazed that anybody has a +P version of .40S&W. That thing is plenty high pressure as it is. Is that an official SAAMI spec, or is it something a marketer came up with?

Georgia Arms has some. 1200 FPS with a 155gr projectile.

 

[MountainPeak]

+P +P. will not be NEAR as good, after the manufacturers release +P +P +P! I fully expect them to release +P+P+P+P+P+P+P+P+P, sometime in my grand daughters life. SOME, will believe, how did we ever get by without it!!!:banghead:

 

[SaxonPig]

SAAMI max for the .38 Special is 21,500 units of whatever they call it now (PSI or CUP I lose track) and +P is loaded to 18,500 so it's far below industry maximum. The reason for +P is to sell ammo that is at least close to full power but protect themselves when owners of Stars, Rubys or whatever junk blow themselves up. The gun makers will usually advise against because that's what their lawyers tell them to do. I have been shooting hundreds and hundreds of factory +Ps through a pair of S&Ws made in 1942 and 1949 respectively. I find this load fairly mild and prefer my handloads (a 125 at 1,100) for defensive carry. I have shot tons of this ammo through the guns as well with no discernable effect. All are free to do what they think best. Factory +P in a Model 64 would cause me zero concern.

Keith, I have to disagree. I do not believe that any American ammo company has ever loaded "subgun ammo." It is my understanding that this is a long standing myth. Factory +P+ 115 grain 9mm ammo clocks about 1280 FPS from my S&W 659 so it's warm but it's not as hot as many Europen companies loaded this caliber for military and police contracts. I have heard of 1400+ FPS from some European 9mm ball. Zowie. Also, please be careful about making blanket statements such as 9mm pistols can't handle +P+. If you notice in my first reply I use this ammo in my pistol. I use nothing but this ammo and I shoot it a lot. I buy this ammo in 1,000 round lots and so far I have had no trouble with my pistol.

 

[Don't Tread On Me]

AFAIK, there's no +p .40s&w or .357sig, or .45gap etc...

Why? Because they are all modern cartridges (less than 20 years old), and they are already made to use high pressures.


9mm, .38spl and .45acp are over 80 years old. Note that these come in +p, with 9mm having a +p+ (rare). Back then, their pressure level was high. High as it could be. Today, with better/stronger firearms, and newer propellants and components - they can handle higher pressure.

None of these really NEEDS it, so that argument is bogus.

A standard velocity 9mm is plenty, so is a .45acp. Where +p comes in handy is for those short barrel concealed pistols. They lose a lot of velocity, and velocity helps expansion and penetration.

I have some Winchester Ranger 115gr +p+ 9mm. In my 5" barrel XD...It averages 1,410 fps!! I don't use this as a defense load because I don't expect the bullet to stay in once piece (will probably blow apart after impact, jacket separation etc..) It does 1,310fps average in a 3.5" barrel....