Maverick223
Member
I agree and am guilty as well...I haven't shot a Burris FFII in years, but it was a pretty nice scope IIRC. The Bushnell is a great scope for the money.
Whats the deal with scopes?
- Thread starter matai
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What was the original question ... oh yeah ... "So how much do you gotta spend to get a scope that doesn't have a super narrow field of view???"
Other than the obvious comment about not enough information, didn't Coal Dragger sort of answer his question in post #10? I don't agree with his first criterion but #2, #3 and #4 are on the money. Find as many scopes that meet CD's criteria (#2, #3 and #4) and the cheapest one will equal "how much do you gotta spend".
I think I've caused enough trouble for one day so I should leave it at that.
matai
Member
WOW this thread has been interesting, I've learned a lot so far. I know I should have been a little more specific when I first posted, it was a little rantish.
So I guess what I'm looking for is a scope that:
1. Doesn't have any parallax issues
2. Point of aim doesn't change with zoom.
3. Not super duper sensitive about eye position. This is probably not an issue with decent scopes huh.
4. 3-9x, preferably more
5. Under $500
What do you guys think?
Is it possible?
So I guess what I'm looking for is a scope that:
1. Doesn't have any parallax issues
2. Point of aim doesn't change with zoom.
3. Not super duper sensitive about eye position. This is probably not an issue with decent scopes huh.
4. 3-9x, preferably more
5. Under $500
What do you guys think?
Is it possible?
matai
Member
Like mebbe a Bushnell Elite 3200 5-15x40mm????
Coal Dragger
member
1858,
You may not agree with my 1st criteria, but in my experience scopes with larger ocular lenses usually provide a better image. I don't know all the whys and hows, but I do know that like any other optical system the less radically curved the glass is the less distortion there will usually be. In other words that large lens has a larger "sweet spot" for the image to be viewed in. Now a scope maker could turn/grind down the excess glass and still turn out a smaller diameter ocular lens and housing. However, if the scope has a large objective lens giving a large exit pupil at lower magnifications, or is one that is made to give a large field of view there is no getting around the need for that larger lens with less distortion near the edges. All the other lenses in the ocular set may be large too in order to provide that wide field of view and still deliver a nice high quality image.
For proof of this look at high end telescope eye pieces, like those made by Al Nagler. They are famous for providing a wide field of view, even at high magnifications, with a nice flat undistorted field. They are also physically huge, very large diameter optics. They are also very expensive.
You may not agree with my 1st criteria, but in my experience scopes with larger ocular lenses usually provide a better image. I don't know all the whys and hows, but I do know that like any other optical system the less radically curved the glass is the less distortion there will usually be. In other words that large lens has a larger "sweet spot" for the image to be viewed in. Now a scope maker could turn/grind down the excess glass and still turn out a smaller diameter ocular lens and housing. However, if the scope has a large objective lens giving a large exit pupil at lower magnifications, or is one that is made to give a large field of view there is no getting around the need for that larger lens with less distortion near the edges. All the other lenses in the ocular set may be large too in order to provide that wide field of view and still deliver a nice high quality image.
For proof of this look at high end telescope eye pieces, like those made by Al Nagler. They are famous for providing a wide field of view, even at high magnifications, with a nice flat undistorted field. They are also physically huge, very large diameter optics. They are also very expensive.
Coal Dragger
member
matai,
If you have $500 to spend on a scope there is no reason in the world you can't find a great piece of glass for that amount. Do some research and figure out what specs you are looking for, magnification, eye relief, objective diameter etc.
Remember the more magnification the more glass you need up front in the objective to support it. On average a healthy adult human eye can take advantage of an exit pupil of around 5-6mm, some can use more. So try to stick with a scope that will give you that exit pupil or better under the widest magnification range. You may not be able to get that at the scopes highest power, and that is OK as long as you know to not try to run high magnification in low light. During bright daylight the smaller exit pupil is no problem from a light standpoint as there is plenty of light! What you should not do is buy some really over powered scope with a modest objective lens, because it will not be very versatile. If all you will do is shoot paper targets in broad daylight then fine, but if you are going to hunt it's a no go.
To calculate the exit pupil divide the objective lens diameter in mm by the magnification. For example a 3.5-10X40 would have a 4mm exit pupil at 10X and an 11.42mm exit pupil at 3.5X. That is not bad at all, although if you run a 50mm objective you have a 5mm exit pupil at 10X and that is even better! The downside is the scope will be larger and heavier with that larger objective. My own favorite scope right now is a Nightforce 3.5-15X50 and although the optics are very good and can hold 15X in diminishing light much better than they have any right to, it is still noticeably better when I turn it down to 10X or lower in low light. On a moonlit night, with that NF turned down to around 6-8X you could really get in trouble with the game warden...
Anyhow once you have some candidates narrowed down, go hit up a good shop with a wide selection of optics, and figure out exactly what power range you want and how large a scope you will put up with (because reading specs is different than having the scopes in hand). First start by looking through the scopes in your price range to see what kind of image quality they give, how well you like the reticle, etc. Look at the image at the edges of the field of view, if they are not sharp and clear or you see ghosting, warping of the image, or reflections of light or glare; move on because the optics suck.
Next make sure the elevation and windage adjustments are good and solid. You are looking for consistent repeatable clicks, they should not feel like you can accidentally turn past them. The clicks should be easily felt to engage so you have no trouble counting them. At this point a good inspection of the scope body is in order, how well is the finish applied, is there any obviously sloppy fitment issues with say the ocular focus etc. Look at how well the lenses are cemented/or retained, how well they are protected from damage.
Once you have found a scope or scopes that pass your inspection make a final decision based on the best warranty, or the one that has the best glass for your eyes. Then buy a high quality set of mounts, buy the scope, get her mounted, leveled, and bore sighted; then hit the range and get to work getting sighted in and familiar with your new rifle and optics!
If you have $500 to spend on a scope there is no reason in the world you can't find a great piece of glass for that amount. Do some research and figure out what specs you are looking for, magnification, eye relief, objective diameter etc.
Remember the more magnification the more glass you need up front in the objective to support it. On average a healthy adult human eye can take advantage of an exit pupil of around 5-6mm, some can use more. So try to stick with a scope that will give you that exit pupil or better under the widest magnification range. You may not be able to get that at the scopes highest power, and that is OK as long as you know to not try to run high magnification in low light. During bright daylight the smaller exit pupil is no problem from a light standpoint as there is plenty of light! What you should not do is buy some really over powered scope with a modest objective lens, because it will not be very versatile. If all you will do is shoot paper targets in broad daylight then fine, but if you are going to hunt it's a no go.
To calculate the exit pupil divide the objective lens diameter in mm by the magnification. For example a 3.5-10X40 would have a 4mm exit pupil at 10X and an 11.42mm exit pupil at 3.5X. That is not bad at all, although if you run a 50mm objective you have a 5mm exit pupil at 10X and that is even better! The downside is the scope will be larger and heavier with that larger objective. My own favorite scope right now is a Nightforce 3.5-15X50 and although the optics are very good and can hold 15X in diminishing light much better than they have any right to, it is still noticeably better when I turn it down to 10X or lower in low light. On a moonlit night, with that NF turned down to around 6-8X you could really get in trouble with the game warden...
Anyhow once you have some candidates narrowed down, go hit up a good shop with a wide selection of optics, and figure out exactly what power range you want and how large a scope you will put up with (because reading specs is different than having the scopes in hand). First start by looking through the scopes in your price range to see what kind of image quality they give, how well you like the reticle, etc. Look at the image at the edges of the field of view, if they are not sharp and clear or you see ghosting, warping of the image, or reflections of light or glare; move on because the optics suck.
Next make sure the elevation and windage adjustments are good and solid. You are looking for consistent repeatable clicks, they should not feel like you can accidentally turn past them. The clicks should be easily felt to engage so you have no trouble counting them. At this point a good inspection of the scope body is in order, how well is the finish applied, is there any obviously sloppy fitment issues with say the ocular focus etc. Look at how well the lenses are cemented/or retained, how well they are protected from damage.
Once you have found a scope or scopes that pass your inspection make a final decision based on the best warranty, or the one that has the best glass for your eyes. Then buy a high quality set of mounts, buy the scope, get her mounted, leveled, and bore sighted; then hit the range and get to work getting sighted in and familiar with your new rifle and optics!
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Coal Dragger, you're absolutely right and I sincerely apologize ... I misread your first point as "small objective lens units" and immediately thought of a 1.5-5x20mm that I have with a 4mm exit pupil. Now I can emphatically say that you answered the OP's question perfectly in post #10. Again, my apologies to you and the OP.
Coal Dragger
member
No problem. I have misread posts in the past too. I just thought I would give further explanation of my point for the questionable benefit it might provide anyone who cares to read it.
Uncle Mike
Member
You see Mav... I told you Leupolds caused trouble.....
NOW...... can we all play nice together?:banghead:
NOW...... can we all play nice together?:banghead:
Maverick223
Member
Tell me about it...they just bring out the worst.
But 1858 took my shovel...I'm going to the other sandbox.
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