What's the True Statistics On England and Australia's Gun Bans?

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sherman123

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I always hear conflicting info on it honestly and was wondering what their equivalent of our FBI's crime statistics show. Long story short I'm debating with an uncle who strongly supports gun control and I know he'll bring those two countries up. I know one can argue correlation ans causation but what I'm mainly looking for is how their overall murder and violent crime rates have changed since?
 
England's gun ban is working so well at preventing violent crime that they are now considering banning kitchen knives...

One has to look at "violent crime" in total vice "gun crime" in these arguments, but that can be hard to get the other side to do.
 
England is particularly instructive (I have paid little attention to Australia).

There are two sources for UK data: the [strike]Stationery Office[/strike] and the Home Office.

ETA - Stationery Office repurposed themselves, I guess; current location for crime info is the Office for National Statistics.

Note that European practice seems to be to report crime per 1,000 population. The US/Canada standard is crime per 100,000 population.

See also the Bureau of Justice Statistics publication Crime and Justice in the United States and in England and Wales, 1981-96. Published in 1998, it's a bit dated, but it predates some interesting redefinitions of crimes that some seem to believe suggest chicanery by HM government.
 
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I suppose if a huge army stormed your town, confiscated every gun they could find, every round of ammo, all reloading equipment, and ANYTHING else related to firearms and kept searching for several months, then came back every other day and to search........you get the point.......well I suppose there would be a few less gun accidents. But there still would be brutal murders, rapes and robberies.

No I can't rattle off any statistics about Australia, but that's not a world I would choose to live. But the scenery is nice. (and some people can have guns)

How are the stats for HI? Always curious about that.
 
I didn't think anyone in the UK believed their government's crime statistics. Even the government doesn't believe it own numbers.
The UK Statistics Authority has said that police recorded crime data in England and Wales should no longer be designated as National Statistics because of accumulating evidence that they may be unreliable.
 
I suppose if a huge army stormed your town, confiscated every gun they could find, every round of ammo, all reloading equipment, and ANYTHING else related to firearms and kept searching for several months, then came back every other day and to search........you get the point.......well I suppose there would be a few less gun accidents. But there still would be brutal murders, rapes and robberies.

Actually "gun" violence wouldn't die even if you did all of those things. My son built a working firearm when he was 10. I guarantee it will kill. It doesn't take a genius to build a gun now that the principles are known. Prisoners used to build zip guns often. You don't need cartridges to do it either. It just takes a propellant that will generate some power. It may not be the safest thing to do to build a working firearm without knowing something about the specs of what you're doing but it can be done. But it can be done and desperate people would consider doing it. Heck they build air cannons that will shoot a pumpkin OVER A MILE! Most won't quite get that far but the record is just over a mile. Still I don't think I'd want to be shot with a pumpkin that would "only" go 4,000 feet.

One of our greatest gun designers learned his trade as a boy and perfected it in prison. He was entirely self taught too. His name is David Williams. The movie about his life called him "Carbine Williams". That's because he designed the M1 carbine while he was in prison in North Carolina before he was pardoned to continue his work on weapons. His M1 Carbine design was popular in WWII and is still in use around the world today. The movie overstates his contribution to the design of the M1 Carbine but he was working on a separate design working for Winchester when tests were done just months before he completed his design. But certain aspects of the carbine design did come from Williams. The main point here is that Williams was building working firearms from sugar cane using rubber bands for his trigger and firing pin operation.

The original Kentucky long rifle and the Penn. rifle were both cottage industry guns meaning they were mostly made by individuals in the early 19 century and before. Once you develop a reliable way to bore a barrel you can build a reliable gun. And anyone with a decent drill press can make a barrel with some practice. I wouldn't suggest it for most people but it can be done. And there are plenty of places to hide and build guns in the USA. It doesn't all look like NYC (which probably comes as a shock to many people :) ).
 
A lot of people think that all guns are banned in the UK. This is not the case, rifles , shotguns, muzzle loaders and 'long barrelled pistols are still permitted (though are very tightly regulated).

From what I've read, the 'gun crime' statistics in the UK are extremely skewed due to the fact that anything even vaguely firearms related is classed as such (for example kids playing with airsoft bb guns).
 
One thing to keep in mind for the US, UK, and Australia is that crime rates started dropping around the beginning of the 90s. In Australia, the ban on guns happened after violent crime was already down, and in America the expiration of the fed awb didn't change things either, crime kept dropping. The logical conclusion to me is that crime is pretty loosely related to gun control and that the driving factor must be cultural or economic. To ceezees insightful post above, Google the home made submachine guns they have been seizing from gangs in Australia. Gun control absolutely will not keep criminals from having and using guns. if an island nation can't do it, nobody can
 
I have followed this for nearly fifty years now, and my preferred source on British gun crime/gun control issues has been Colin Greenwood.

Colin Greenwood, Superintendent, West Yorkshire Metropolitan Police, writing in 1972 about the effects of half a century of UK gun control from the 1920 Firearms Act to the 1968 Firearms Act, in Colin Greenwood, "Firearms Control", (Routledge & Kegan Paul, London, 1972):
"No matter how one approaches the figures, one is forced to the conclusion that the use of firearms in crime was very much less when there were no controls of any sort and when anyone, convicted criminal or lunatic, could buy any type of firearm without restriction. Half a century of strict controls on pistols has ended, perversely, with a far greater use of this class of weapon in crime than ever before."

''Restricting Handguns: The Liberal Skeptics Speak Out'', ed. by Don B. Kates, North River Press, 1979, includes extensive extracts from Colin Greenwood on pages 33 through 55. Colin Greenwood & Joseph Magaddino, "Comparative Cross-Cultural Statistics", in Restricting Handguns p.39 (Don Kates ed., 1979):

At first glance it may seem odd, or even perverse, to suggest that statutory controls on the private ownership of firearms are irrelevant to the problem of armed crime, yet that is precisely what the evidence shows. Armed crime and violent crime generally are products of ethnic and social factors unrelated to the availability of any particular type of weapon. The numbers of firearms required [to arm criminals are minute in comparison to the overall number in private hands], and these are supplied no matter what controls are instituted. Controls have had serious effects on legitimate users of firearms, but there is no case either in the history this country [England] or in the experience of other countries, in which controls have been shown to have restricted the flow of weapons to criminals or in any way to have reduced armed crime.

Comparing the effects of the 1988 restrictions on shotgun certificates, crime statistics before and after the restrictions were imposed, Greenwood concluded "It might be possible to conclude that the law has an immediate effect on the law abiding, but that criminals, by definition, do not obey the law."

British Criminologist Colin Greenwood wrote a critique of the 2006 Home Office Research Study 298, Gun Crime: The market in and use of illegal firearms. He observed:
The 1997 legislation deprived 57,000 people of their property, removed 160,000 handguns from circulation and cost many millions of pounds in compensation. If the effects of that legislation can not be evaluated, then the whole discipline of criminology is a waste of time. If the ban on handguns had any effect in protecting the public, the date on which it came into effect must be reflected in figures for homicide and robbery involving a pistol. The figures for England and Wales for six years before and after 1997 are shown below. .... The pattern of pistol use in homicide is progressively upwards whilst the pattern in robbery shows that the numbers were falling but then rose sharply, only to fall back again. The only conclusion is that the ban imposed by the 1997 Act was simply an irrelevance.

Code:
British Homicides and Armed Robberies
Six years before, 1997 ban, and six years after.

Homicide
Year   Total   Total                     Sawn-off
       Homicide Firearms Shotgun  Shotgun   Pistol 
1991      725        55       25        7      19
1992      681        56       20        5      28
1993      675        74       29       10      35
1994      727        66       22       14      25
1995      753        70       18       10      39
1996      679        49        9        8      30
1997      753        59       12        4      39
1998      731        49        4        7      32 *
1999      761        62        6       13      42
2000      850        73       12        2      47
2001      858        97       20        1      59
2002     1045        81       20        3      40
2003      858        68        7        4      35

Robberies 
       Total    Total             Sawn-off
Year   Robbery  Firearms Shotgun  Shotgun   Pistol 
1991    45,323     5296      381      650    2988
1992    52,894     5827      406      602    3544
1993    57,845     5918      437      593    3605
1994    60,007     4104      274      373    2390
1995    68,074     3963      235      281    2478
1996    74,035     3617      224      232    2316
1997    63,072     3029      121      178    1854
1998    66,172     2973      138      193    1814 *
1999    84,277     3922      138      217    2561
2000    95,154     4081      98       199    2700
2001   121,375     5323      143      201    3841
2002   108,045     4776      101      174    3332
2003   101,195     4117      98       148    2799

*From 1998 onward the figures are for the financial 
year to 1st April of the following year.
Greenwood's complete article at Dunblane resource page:
http://www.dvc.org.uk/dunblane/greenwood.html

I found the outstanding feature of Home Office Research Study 298 is documentation of 1996-2006 rise of a distinct class of British criminals called "armourers" who illegally imported guns, fenced stolen guns, modified guns, repaired guns, used blank-firers or even toys as the basis of zipguns, and kept the British criminal class better armed than before the 1997 handgun ban.

Study 298 also includes interviews with British criminals imprisoned for armed crimes. They told the researchers that they expected they would be able to acquire an illegal weapon within a week of release from prison, pistol, sawn-off shotgun. If they had enough money and wanted one, submachineguns were not hard to find on the British illegal gun market. To achieve this end, the 1997 ban forced the British Olymipic target shooting team to move their handguns to Belgian gun clubs, and cross the English Channel by ferry when they wanted to practice. During that time illegal handguns became a must-have fashion accessory among the British gangster wannabe set aping US gangsta rap and hip-hop cultures.

Looking at the British trends in sawed-shotgun and pistol in homicide and robbery, it appears to me that after the 1996 handgun "adjustment" and the 1997 outright ban, the "armourers" have done a pretty good (bad) job of supplying handguns to illegal users. Use of pistols went up some but use of sawed-off shotguns went down some. Since the sawed-off shotgun is viewed as a substitute for pistols, more availability of illegal pistols should logically lead to less use of sawed-off shotguns.

Another Danger in Comparing International Stats

Apples v Oranges

Colin Greenwood on UK versus International Homicide stats:
Homicide statistics too vary widely. In some developing
countries, the statistics are known to be far from complete. Figures
for crimes labelled as homicide in various countries are simply not
comparable. Since 1967, homicide figures for England and Wales have
been adjusted to exclude any cases which do not result in conviction,
or where the person is not prosecuted on grounds of self defence or
otherwise. This reduces the apparent number of homicides by between 13
per cent and 15 per cent. The adjustment is made only in respect of
figures shown in one part of the Annual Criminal Statistics. In
another part relating to the use of firearms, no adjustment is made. A
table of the number of homicides in which firearms were used in
England and Wales will therefore differ according to which section of
the annual statistics was used as its base. Similarly in statistics
relating to the use of firearms, a homicide will be recorded where the
firearm was used as a blunt instrument, but in the specific homicide
statistics, that case will be shown under "blunt instrument".

Many countries, including the United States, do not adjust
their statistics down in that way and their figures include cases of
self defence, killings by police and justifiable homicides. In
Portugal, cases in which the cause of death is unknown are included in
the homicide figures, inflating the apparent homicide rate very
considerably.

Causing death by dangerous driving is not classed as homicide
in England and Wales, but is classified as homicide in some countries.
Over 200 such cases occur in England and Wales each year.

In France, Switzerland and several other countries, attempts
and completed homicides are treated as a single statistical unit and
can be separated out only by special enquiry.

Past British murder stats are adjusted as cases work their way through the courts and are adjudicated as criminal, justifiable (self-defense) or acquittal. There is no such adjustment in FBI UCR homicide stats. It has been estimated by Gary Kleck that for every US homicide coded in the police crime report as 09C 090C (justifiable homicide) there will be 4 to 7 homicides adjudicated as justifiable (or resulting in acquittal on self-defense grounds) by prosecutor, grand jury, trial jury, trial judge or appellate court adjudicating the evidence as showing self-defense. The FBI UCR does not reflect justifiable homicides adjudicated above the police report level. Any given year, 15 to 20 states do not report 09C on an incident report, even though spot checks show adjudicated justifiable homicides in those states (which are hard to detect because in most US jurisdictions, it appears to me, justifiable homicide is grounds for acquittal, with no adjudication of "justifiable homicide" in the record, just an acquittal on charges of homicide where self-defense is grounds for acquittal.
 
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Had a Aussie kid work for me for 3 years before he went home. His version on Aussie gun regs was that they have far disappeared....just gone under ground!
The bans only increased crimes.
Dan
 
From what I've read, the 'gun crime' statistics in the UK are extremely skewed due to the fact that anything even vaguely firearms related is classed as such (for example kids playing with airsoft bb guns).

Exactly. Such as a person firing an air rifle in their garden and who had the police called on them by their neighbour. It all goes under the blanket of "gun crime."
 
I think the only way we will ever get to the bottom of this is to run parallel studies in the US, UK, SA, Japan and Australia with specific data gathering requirements:

1) The overall number of unlawful deaths or serious injuries caused by civilian use of firearms.

2) An exact history of the ownership of each weapon (in other words whether it was held legally or not, and if it was held illegally how it came to be in possession of the criminal). Was this gun stolen from a person who was legally in possession of it? Was this gun illegally manufactured or produced from modifying something that wasn't a firearm to begin with? Was this firearm smuggled across borders?

What is needed is a solid breakdown per country, per 100,000 people, of what the origin of these guns is. There's a big difference between pistol parts being smuggled into the country in a crate of engine parts, and a guy who legally holds firearms going on the rampage.
Stolen firearms fit somewhere in between. That's a subject for a whole other thread. My personal belief is that gun owners don't do themselves any favours as a group if they don't take reasonable precautions to reduce the risk of losing a firearm due to theft.

The old days of leaving a rifle propped up against an apple tree down in the yard, or unsecured in a vehicle out in the parking lot (and feeling secure in the knowledge it will still be there the next day), are gone. In my opinion we as firearms owners have a responsibility to secure our firearms.
 
There is a problem with attempting to compare British and US crime rates. It's like comparing apples to steak and kidney pie.

US federal crime statistics call four offenses "violent crimes":

In the FBI’s Uniform Crime Reporting (UCR) Program, violent crime is composed of four offenses: murder and nonnegligent manslaughter, forcible rape, robbery, and aggravated assault. Violent crimes are defined in the UCR Program as those offenses which involve force or threat of force.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/uc...-in-the-u.s.-2012/violent-crime/violent-crime

The British definition includes "all crimes against the person":

The British Home Office, by contrast, has a substantially different definition of violent crime. The British definition includes all “crimes against the person,” including simple assaults, all robberies, and all “sexual offenses,” as opposed to the FBI, which only counts aggravated assaults and “forcible rapes.”

http://blog.skepticallibertarian.co...e-uk-really-5-times-more-violent-than-the-us/
 
'....Australia's "No mass shooting since 1996" mantra isn't valid anymore.....'


5 killed in rural NSW shooting


http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/s...d-in-rural-NSW-shooting&p=2091129#post2091129



Also

'....Let's see how gun control is working for us...'


Here is kind of a documentation of violent crime in Australia which never gets reported in the mainstream media in the U.S. as it is not politically expedient. You will see reports of drive by shootings, assaults, rapes, and murder in a country where personal protection is no reason to own a gun!

http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?118350-Let-s-see-how-gun-control-is-working-for-us


And in case anyone missed it, here is an announcement from the government that appeared in The Sunday Telegraph. Lets pray that we never ever see any of these type of announcements in our newspapers someday!

no-reason_poster.gif

.
 
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'....Australia's "No mass shooting since 1996" mantra isn't valid anymore.....'


5 killed in rural NSW shooting


http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/s...d-in-rural-NSW-shooting&p=2091129#post2091129



Also

'....Let's see how gun control is working for us...'


Here is kind of a documentation of violent crime in Australia which never gets reported in the mainstream media in the U.S. as it is not politically expedient. You will see reports of drive by shootings, assaults, rapes, and murder in a country where personal protection is no reason to own a gun!

http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?118350-Let-s-see-how-gun-control-is-working-for-us


And in case anyone missed it, here is an announcement from the government that appeared in The Sunday Telegraph. Lets pray that we never ever see any of these type of announcements in our newspapers someday!

no-reason_poster.gif

.
If we (in the US) ever get to the point of needing a reason, we will have already lost.
 
A lot of people think that all guns are banned in the UK. This is not the case, rifles , shotguns, muzzle loaders and 'long barrelled pistols are still permitted (though are very tightly regulated).

From what I've read, the 'gun crime' statistics in the UK are extremely skewed due to the fact that anything even vaguely firearms related is classed as such (for example kids playing with airsoft bb guns).

Fredericianer, given that most modern, common type of handguns and rifles have been banned I would say that pretty much amounts to a severe ban. Maybe not TOTAL as you claim. But in view of the fact that I, as well as many other Americans believe we have the right to those banned types of weapons for self defense I think it is an unjustly harsh ban.

As far as the UK fudging around the crime stats, I think they do; but this is a horse I choose not to ride so harshly, as I am pretty sure our authorities here are all too quick to twist the statistics around to their own dishonest ends as well.
 
As has been pointed out, homicide rates from different countries cannot be directly compared. Different countries use different definitions.

Still, if you want to hold your nose and make the attempt, try this web site. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

What you learn from the data is that the United States is not a particularly dangerous place, all the propaganda notwithstanding. It's pretty much in the middle of the pack. There are several countries with homicide rates 5X that of ours, and, of course, countries with rates 5X smaller. If you want to believe the data, you have to ignore the nonsense about the US being the murder capital of the world. It's not. If you want to visit someplace dangerous, try Belize at roughly 10X our rate, or Honduras at 20X our rate.

You'll also note from the chart a couple of US possessions that are routinely left off the charts comparing homicides with the strictness of state laws: US Virgin Islands and Puerto Rico. Along with Washington DC, they are regularly omitted. Why? They spoil the narrative. If you include those three, which have extremely repressive gun laws and astronomical homicide rates, then the slope of the resulting line is in the "wrong" direction, and the evidence is that fewer legal guns produce more homicides, and more guns produce fewer homicides.

I had failed to see through this ruse when I wrote this article, which is already damning enough: http://armsandthelaw.com/archives/brady_effectiveness.pdf It shows that if you include all the states, and use the FBI homicide rates, which are consistently defined, there is no correlation between gun law strictness and homicide rates. None. Zip. Nada. In other words, you might as well look to the prime rate or the barometric pressure as an indicator of your likelihood of being murdered. They have as much influence as the strictness of gun laws.

Finally, consider the fallacy that eliminating firearm deaths eliminates those deaths from the total. It does not. If it did, the Japanese would have a near zero suicide rate, since they have effectively no private firearms. And Malaysia, where possession of a firearm and a single round of ammunition brings an automatic death sentence would have effectively no homicides. Neither is true. Japan has twice the suicide rate of the US, and Malaysia's homicide rate is higher than Europe's, where many countries allow firearm possession. Eliminating firearms simply induces people to find other, less convenient methods.
 
If you look at the bad areas of big cities in the UK or Australia, you will probably find quite a bit of violent crime just like the big cities in the US. It is unfair to compare the US to a country like Canada because Canada does not have many large cities with drugs/gangs like the US.

Now if you compare a rural area in Canada to a rural area in Montana, I would guess the violent crime would be about the same.

Look at areas, such as Mexico or other parts of Latin America, that lack economic opportunity, and you will find a lot of violent crime no matter what the gun laws are.
 
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......One of our greatest gun designers learned his trade as a boy and perfected it in prison. He was entirely self taught too. His name is David Williams. The movie about his life called him "Carbine Williams". That's because he designed the M1 carbine while he was in prison in North Carolina before he was pardoned to continue his work on weapons. His M1 Carbine design was popular in WWII and is still in use around the world today. The movie overstates his contribution to the design of the M1 Carbine but he was working on a separate design working for Winchester when tests were done just months before he completed his design. But certain aspects of the carbine design did come from Williams. The main point here is that Williams was building working firearms from sugar cane using rubber bands for his trigger and firing pin operation.


From the same source you site only this is the entry on the real story of the M1 Carbine and not the fictionalized movie you site:

“Contrary to movie myth, Williams had little to do with the carbine's development, with the exception of his short-stroke gas piston design. Williams worked on his own design apart from the other Winchester staff, but it was not ready for testing until December 1941, two months after the Winchester M1 Carbine had been adopted and type-classified. Winchester supervisor Edwin Pugsley conceded that Williams' final design was "an advance on the one that was accepted", but noted that Williams' decision to go it alone was a distinct impediment to the project,[5] and Williams' additional design features were not incorporated into M1 production. In a 1951 memo in response to a possible lawsuit by Williams, Winchester noted his patent for the short-stroke piston may have been improperly granted as a previous patent covering the same principle of operation was overlooked at the patent office.[5]
In 1973 the senior technical editor at the NRA contacted Edwin Pugsley for "a technical last testament" on M1 carbine history shortly before his death 19 Nov 1975. According to Pugsley, "The carbine was invented by no single man," but was the result of a team effort including Bill Roemer, Marsh Williams, Fred Humeston, Cliff Warner, at least three other Winchester engineers, and Pugsley himself. Ideas were taken and modified from the Winchester M2 Browning rifle (Williams' gas system), the Winchester 1905 rifle (fire control group), M1 Garand (buttstock, bolt and operating slide), and a percussion shotgun in Pugsley's collection (hook breech and barrel band assembly/disassembly).”[7]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_carbine
 
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