what's up with this market?

[Evil Monkey]

Man we're lacking diversity! It's so annoying how the world offers SO MUCH and we get so little. I know laws are the major hurdle but seriously, there has to be ways to get sub-$1,000 "battle quality" 5.56mm rifles that use ar15 mags in the US.

Daewoo K2


Indonesian Pindad SS-1 (FNC copy, because you know straight from FN would cost a ridiculous price)

SR88 from Singapore

And what ever happened to those CETME L rifles when Spain switched to G36E? They should be chopped up and set here as parts kits.

I'm pretty sure there's more but rifles like AR90, Tavor, Famas, etc are probably going to be more than $1,000 if they were to hit US streets. And stuff like L85's may be pretty much impossible to acquire.

All I ever see are keltecs , ar180b's whos lower is garbage , and those that don't use ar mags are old, ergonomically obsolete platforms like ak's, galils, etc, with their mags getting more and more expensive everyday or expensive from day one because of their "one of a kind" status (I HATE proprietary accessories because of that. The soviets were getting it right...AN AK MAG FOR THE WHOLE WORLD! Wal-Mart couldn't even sell them at a lower price. ) .

I mean rifles like SIG556, xcr, etc, that run about 1000-1400 aren't THAT expensive, but that's all you see in the US market. It's retarded.

And every once in a while you'll see some total BS like an MSAR STG556 that's mags are proprietary and cost like $35+ or more each, and the rifle costs around $1,500. Then another company comes along saying "hey our version uses ar15 mags", but the damn rifle runs $2,000+!?!?

/rant

 

[Aka Zero]

Stop it... your mean.... posting all the rifles I want but can't really get here. I have wanted a K2 ever since I read stuff on them.

I just want a gas piston gun in .223, it's a more accurate round over 7.62. And .308 guns are a lot more expensive.... Building an AR only because there are no better options in .223.


And famas..... drooling over one of those for years.... bullpup rifles are one of my favorite things.

922r compliance sucks, $300 ak = $400 ak... and then not so popular guns don't have enough us made parts for them to be imported.....

 

[PercyShelley]

And what ever happened to those CETME L rifles when Spain switched to G36E? They should be chopped up and set here as parts kits.

I want to know too. There should be a ton of those things floating around!

 

[Rubber_Duck]

Folks in Spain can get a deactivated CETME-L for as little as 250 Euros...

http://www.militaria.es/Base/Tenda.php?num=0&ref=49&sc=S&subcat=51

I wonder what it would take to get one working again.

 

[MAKster]

The AR totally dominates the scene and is crowding out everything except AKs. No one is going to go through the effort of importing these lesser know models when in all likelihood they would sell in very limited amounts and be more expensive than an AR. Also, someone would have to go to the expensive of one-off manufacturing the necessary U.S. conversion parts.

 

[rfurtkamp]

What killed the market: the 1989 import ban.

Non-sporting rifles are just too hard to import in the price range you're looking at for modernish designs.

The Daewoos when they were available weren't amazing sellers, they're decent rifles and all but US buyers aren't going to shell out a premium for them en masse.

If there was a huge market for most of these weapons, they'd be made domestically. There just isn't one.

Things like the 5.56 Cetmes (even if the kits got here intact, which is impossible now with the barrel ban) would face an even harder sell. Only company which would make them in the price range you're listing would be Century, and it'd be monkeyfest all over again. Barrel ban, global pressure to torch guns instead of part them out, and an awareness of what things actually sell for in the US along with a weak dollar spell bad things for parts gun imports. Parts kits now are through the roof - go pricing MP5 kits, then the receivers, and then add $600+ for assembly and add 6-18months for completion. You're $2500+ when it's all said and done, and most shooters would just buy a Beretta Storm or an AR for that and pocket the non-insignificant price difference.

The non-AR alternatives on the market aren't in the price range you describe: you have the FN2000, Sig 556, and various small companies making niche products. You're looking at well over the price of a decked out AR for any of them.

I wish it were otherwise, but the AR is insanely popular here both because of military use and hipower competition, and there just isn't enough market left to warrant real diversity.

Any mag and accessory prices would get compared instantly to an AR. If it's not a $12 milspec mag, *somebody* will complain, and enough somebodies will not buy the product on top of it all.

 

[HGUNHNTR]

+1 rfurtkamp We are our own worst enemy by squashing diversity with rediculous comparisons. I'm suprised the Sig 556 even went into production.

I would glady pay $35/mag for a bada#$ 5.56 that was not an AR and under the $1k price point. Just for the sake of having something different to plink with!

 

[rfurtkamp]

I'm suprised the Sig 556 even went into production.

So am I, honestly. I really, really, really wanted one - until I held one with the Tapco-esque stock. At that price point, it seemd ludicrous.

Should they ever do a side-folder, even if it's not a Swiss-style one, that's factory and works well, I'm down for it. Maybe Choate would do an aftermarket one that fit the buffer tube at some point if nobody else does (and I know there are various pieces of as yet vaporware floating around claiming to be out 'soon), since paying as much for a Swiss lower as the whole rifle and losing AR15 mag compatibility too is a dealbreaker for me.

I would glady pay $35/mag for a bada#$ 5.56 that was not an AR and under the $1k price point. Just for the sake of having something different to plink with!

I might as well, I'd like to have some fun pistol-caliber carbines as well (already have Uzi/MP5k) that were solidly built and available as factory SBRs and *not* an AR platform. In that, there's an even smaller market.

I'll even pay HK magazine prices if I have to for something truly fun and different, but the only 'new' thing like that was the abortion that is the LUSA SP89 (not to be confused with the HK SP89 that it's named after and certain resellers list it as on auction sites).

I can dream, but I'm also aware of the reality of parts kits and the limited market.

 

[32 Magnum]

battle rifles

CIA is offering some Daewoos - we've had two in the shop and they don't look all that bad - both sold at $750. Also had a couple Golani/Galils - one in "sporter" version, one in military config. with bayonet lug and flash hider - both sold for 795.

 

[scrat]

Well when the govt says they are evil and we dont need them. Then its no use posting what we cant even touch any more.

 

[Shear_stress]

CIA is offering some Daewoos

Are they?

 

[mainmech48]

It's an incredibly expensive proposition to set-up for production of a component such as the receivers most relatively recent military standard issue rifles incorporate from scratch.

When significant changes to both the receiver and action design would be required to make reconversion to selective-fire 'impossible' enough to pass BATFE and Customs dicta, and/or the manufacture of one or more other unique major components would be involved it'd take a relatively huge potential sales volume just to break-even.

Economies of scale don't really come into play until the initial investment costs have been recovered. A very substantial portion of the price for each unit has to be dedicated to doing that within a set period of time.

If that projected price can't be set at a figure that will do that, plus some return and be fairly certain to still be competitive enough within the target market to succeed, it ain't gonna be done.

Not many folks are gonna risk such a huge ante to get into a game with such long odds and with so many players already at the table unless they're real convinced that their share of the pot is going to be big enough to offset what they're risking.

Just MO, others may vary.

 

[RP88]

yea, Clinton really screwed us, and no one else seemed to care or bat an eye because he did it during the period where you couldnt get such guns anyway. I guess that is the one good thing the AWB did for the anti-gunners: It didnt include sunsetting the import laws. The fact that ARs are the only real renewable resource for EBRs is kind of proof of that. kind of hard to find anything else nowadays that hasnt gone up by 30-50% in price in the past year simply due to supply problems. And +1 on the above post. It does take too much to domestically make some of those parts. AK markets lived like that because there were so many AKs that it didnt take too long to make a market for it. With other guns that can't even be found... Well, it's just too much of a risk of a loss.

 

[Loosedhorse]

Remember the Steyr AUG?

Microtech Small Arms Research has brought it back.

Looks more fun than the SIG to me!

 

[Gunsby_Blazen]

i know a fella that shoots a .223 AK, its an Arsenal SLR-106FR and it shoots pretty darn good.
there is a sub 1000 dollar piston rifle that shoots .223....

 

[craig]

i got a dr200 a couple of years ago for $700.

it's got the hated by some thumbhole stock but i like it and it's been boringly reliable.

 

[Brass_Monkey]

I have heard rumor of CIA bringing in Chinese type 97 rifles that will take STANAG mags. I would imagine they would go for sub $1k.

There is also the Armalite AR180B as well.

 

[Dumptruck]

I wish that Finland were able to import a civvie version of the RK95

A civvie version of the QBZ-87 (It is Chinese) would be nice. It would have to be in a different chambering because it is currently 5.8x42.

 

[MechAg94]

If you want a piston .223, an AK is the only one I can think of right now. My converted Saiga is sweet. It does not take AR mags, but the mags that are available are very good.

 

[VE2RF]

AR-180B- as previously mentioned- is gas piston. It's a fine rifle, I traded an AR-15 for one.

 

[AlexSpartan]

AR-180b or AR-180. You can find them for anywhere between 700-900, and I hear they are great rifles.

The Provos loved em. They even made a song about them, "My Little Armalite".

 

[jbech123]

what is gas piston vs. how an AR is set up?

and why is it preferable?
I'm quite experienced in bolt guns, but figured I need a SHTF semi auto, and I know I want a .223. an AR is an obvious choice, and I know you can get an AK type in .223 now. Then I see these posts on "gas pistons".

 

[Evil Monkey]

AR-180b or AR-180. You can find them for anywhere between 700-900, and I hear they are great rifles.

AR180B's, as I mentioned in the first post, are hardly "battle quality" rifles. I've seen examples of their broken lowers, it's sad.

Now maybe for $500 it's fine, but for the $850 Armalite is charging, we call that RAPE.

 

[PAC 762]

yea, Clinton really screwed us...

The 1989 import ban was Bush Sr. and the 2007 barrel ban was under the Bush Jr. regime. Those are the 2 primary obstacles to getting the unusual semiautos.

 

[Evil Monkey]

The way I see it, the barrel ban only makes the weapon more expensive if the barrel was to be manufactured in the US.

I DO NOT believe that a company starting to manufacture a new type of barrel will require much time and labor, for that either you will have a machinist making the barrel based on blue prints or an automated lathe of sorts to punch in the numbers and let it do the work for you. The only reason a US made barrel would be expensive is because it's made domestically with domestic dollars.

Considering how powerful the Euro is, I strongly believe that manufacturing some of these parts that need to be machined can actually be cheaper if made in the states, for our civilian market. However, if a company was to produce US made FNC's for example, the dies needed to create the stamped receivers may actually be expensive enough to ultimately bump up the price per FNC to a price no different that if it was imported directly from Belgium.

When it comes to part kit importation, even though the receiver and barrel are gone, you're still getting a break for the rest of the parts that you got at a dirt cheap price.

Because you know that it's 100% IMPOSSIBLE to have Galil's for $600 if the whole rifle was made in the US. Even if the barrel was made in the US (or is it?) the price shouldn't change much. It should still remain a sub $1,000 rifle.

http://www.jgsales.com/product_info.php/p/galil-style-golani-rifle,-223-caliber/products_id/1624