What's wrong on background check's for firearms?

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The point being that the law should not be there in the first place.

Some have become so accustomed to the "rigamarole" that you think the Form 4473, the prohibition against mail orders, obtaining a concealed carry license, etc, etc, etc, is all very natural and logical and is your starting point for viewing anything regarding gun laws.

You have fallen into the trap, my friends.

Because you have already started from halfway down the "slippery slope."

Terry, 230RN

Great commentary. Still waiting for your genius suggestion to enforce the law that prevents felons from legally obtaining weapons.

According to you, we shouldn't have any laws. The law breakers will get em any way... so why have laws? You're a genius, why didn't I think of that. Oh yeah, I forgot... if they get away with it but we catch 'em later, we can send 'em to jail. Under your trap, they will just get away with it forever, cause laws are useless :rolleyes:
 
For a more complete public debate, a better understanding of the law is in order.

The background check does not simply check for felonies, and you don't have to be a former convicted felon to be disallowed:

Persons who would be prohibited from purchasing a firearm as a result of data obtained from the NICS background check include:
  • Convicted felons and people under indictment for a felony
  • Fugitives from justice
  • Unlawful drug users or drug addicts
  • Individuals who have been involuntarily committed to a mental institution or determined to be mentally incompetent
  • Illegal aliens and legal aliens admitted under a non-immigrant visa
  • Individuals who have been dishonorably discharged from the military
  • Persons who have renounced their American citizenship
  • Persons subject to certain domestic violence restraining orders
  • Persons convicted of misdemeanor crimes of domestic violence

Only 2 of these 9 categories mention conviction.
 
Felons, drug addicts, fugitives, traitors, dishonorable dischargees, crazy people, non-immigrants, expatriots, and wife beaters used to go to gun shops and buy guns.

They don't any more. That's good.




But now a safe and responsible person has to pay an extra fee to make each gun purchase. That's bad.



.
 
Felons, drug addicts, fugitives, traitors, dishonorable dischargees, crazy people, non-immigrants, expatriots, and wife beaters used to go to gun shops and buy guns.

They don't any more.



There are purists and then there are realists. The purists live in a fantasy world and are unable to reconcile their ideals with reality. I respect them for their philosophy, but render them inconsequential because they are unable to apply their virtues to reality.

This is true of the purists on the left as well.
 
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I dont mind them... they are a minor inconvenience, but I will concede filling out a damn paper and waiting 10 minutes to get a gun as long as I can get the damn gun.... If you want to bitch and moan about that and waste your time and effort trying to get rid of something so minor, then that is your issue. Personally, I think your time would be better spent introducing people to shooting and ownership within the confines of the law.

Leave out the conspiracy talk as it tends to scare the fence sitters.
 
I dont mind them... they are a minor inconvenience, but I will concede filling out a damn paper and waiting 10 minutes to get a gun as long as I can get the damn gun.... If you want to bitch and moan about that and waste your time and effort trying to get rid of something so minor, then that is your issue. Personally, I think your time would be better spent introducing people to shooting and ownership within the confines of the law.

Leave out the conspiracy talk as it tends to scare the fence sitters.

Finally! Someone with common sense.

Makes me nervous also that some of these folks are debating my RKBA rights. Makes me wish I could put them in the penalty box and make them shut up until we win the fight.
 
Unbelievable. I guess you recommend a "life sentence" for all felony infractions.

You apparently your guessing is as bad as your reading comprehension.

This is your suggestion to enforce the law that prevents felons from lawfully purchasing weapons?

Yea, really radical stuff. Keep felons in prison for their whole sentence.

And I thought our politicians were stupid

Nope, it seems that is what you are here for.

“I would like to take you seriously, but to do so would affront your intelligence.” --William F. Buckley Jr.

Go figure.

Fred
 
I'll give you a practical reason. Others have covered the rest of the bases.

I'm 56 years old. Born in the Commonwealth of Virginia. I have had one (1) speeding ticket in my life. Other than that, I have never had a brush with the law. I'm not mentally unstable. I'm not under any kind of court order, and never have been. I'm not a fugitive from justice. I've never been discharged dishonorably from the military. I've never renounced my U.S. citizenship. You get the idea. I'm a (question one) yes, and the rest "no" straight down the line when I fill out a 4473. I've got a concealed handgun permit (we won't go into rather they should be required or not). I've got a C&R Federal Firearms license. I've jumped through the hoops.

I've also got apparently a rather common name.

EVERY time I go to buy a gun, I get a "delay." This last time, just a couple of days ago, it carried over to the next day before I finally got an "OK" or whatever the word they use is...Proceed? Hardly "instant."

On the other hand, my wife, who has the same last name of course, can fill out the forms at the same time and she will get approved in 5 minutes. We know, we've done it.

Why should I have to wait to purchase anything because someone else might commit a crime? Why should I have to stand around waiting, finally leave, go home, then come back the next day?

Still waiting for your genius suggestion to enforce the law that prevents felons from legally obtaining weapons.

This one is easy. Use a gun in the commission of a crime, and you get 5, 10, 15, whatever years tacked onto the end of your sentence. No parol, no time off, no plea bargain of that part of the sentence. Even if you don't serve one day for the crime, you will do "X" number of years for using the gun. Finished your time for the crime? You still got "X" to go for the gun.

If not a deterance, it would keep 'em off the street for that length of time.
 
Me too. Except for the C&R. I've had a Virginia carry permit since they passed the shall issue law.

I paid for a gun on 4/10 and was delayed. It happens every other time. I finally drove the 100 miles yesterday to pick up my new pistol.

Instant check? Hardly.

John

P.S. - To the poster who said that list only had two things related to conviction on it. You need to add involuntarily commited - it's a legal decision made by a judge; a conviction. Dishonorably discharged is also a legal decision; a conviction. So is a restraining order; another legal decision that goes on your record. Heck, isn't a fugitive from justice a person for whom a judge has issued a bench warrant? That's a legal decision.
 
legalize the drugs, tax the drugs

I'm sure those drug dealers will be sending in that tax money to the government. The costs will be shifted to another large bureaucracy set up to collect the little tax actually sent in.
 
Ants - prove it.

I tried, several years ago, and after much study of the DOJ data concluded that, despite your 'common sense' worldview, the Brady check was not a significant barrier to criminals.

The DOJ data makes sense when you take a broader view of how the Brady check works - it takes past performance and tries to use that to project future returns, to steal a phrase. Most violent felons in jail were actually legal to buy a firearm before they were caught....

You can argue 'common sense' all you want, but we have more than a decade of actual crime data to review to show the actual effectiveness of the law....
 
Fella's;

Some of us really need to read "The Federalist Papers" (funny how it's never mentioned in today's civics classes, huh?). Furthermore, said reading should be done with an open mind. The Papers illuminate the thinking behind the language of the Constitution, written by the framers of it.

And yes, they wanted the general population of the country they hoped to form to have as much freedom as possible. It is very clear that they absolutely recognized that in doing so there would be abuses of those rights by criminals. They were adamant that the freedom was more important.

They were correct.

900F
 
Felons, drug addicts, fugitives, traitors, dishonorable dischargees, crazy people, non-immigrants, expatriots, and wife beaters used to go to gun shops and buy guns.

They don't any more. That's good.

Well, except for the fact that it's completely untrue. But hey, let's not let facts get in the way here.

Maybe some of you aren't old enough to remember that there was once a time when you didn't NEED to do these background checks.

This thing has only been in place since 1993. Before then there was no background check required.

The criminal use of firearms was not higher then, nor did criminals buy their guns from licensed dealers more before the background checks were put in place.

This is fairly new stuff and hasn't had a provable impact on crime since it's inception.

Whether it actually helps or not is up to debate if you look at the facts. You would expect, if this system worked, to see a marked decrease in gun crime since the law was put in place. That hasn't really happened.

Remember that the initial Brady Law called for a 5 day waiting period for the background check to be conducted.

The 5 day waiting period went away when the instant check system became available, but several states still have waiting periods.

From looking at the statistics it appears, quite frankly, that the waiting periods do more to prevent crime than the background checks but even that is very slight, and hard to prove.

NICS says they have rejected about 563,000 checks for handgun purchases but they are unable to give reasons for the denials, so it's hard to correlate those rejections to actual crime stats.

The American Medical Association, who are big proponents of gun control, issued a statement on the Brady Law a few years after it was put in place:

"Our analyses provide no evidence that implementation of the Brady Act was associated with a reduction in homicide rates. In particular, we find no differences in homicide or firearm homicide rates to adult victims in the 32 treatment states directly subject to the Brady Act provisions compared with the remaining control states."

Data from FBI Crime report says:

Between 1991 and 1998, without implementing significant gun control legislation (see endnote), California's homicide rate dropped 48.9% versus 31.9% for the rest of the U.S. Likewise, violent crime fell 34.8% in California compared to 23.2% for the rest of the nation. Even choosing a different year to start the comparison, such as 1993 (when the Brady Act was signed) or 1994 (when Brady became effective, February 28, 1994), homicide and violent crime declined faster in California than nationally (FBI Uniform Crime Reports, 1991-1998). Evidence indicates the Brady Act is not a significant factor in violent crime reduction, or as the case of California suggests, neither were any of the gun control measures that were enacted during the 90's.

Some of you need to do a little research before going off of your "feelings" about gun laws.

Facts are much more useful than feelings, and often they don't agree.

The same thing happened with the Clinton Assault Weapon Ban. Congressional reports and research showed that there was no measurable impact on crime from the ban.

In fact, even if you go WAYYYY back to 1968, when guns first really became regulated, the crime statistics don't change much.

Before 1968, when you could order guns from the Sears catalog, the gun crime rate was lower than it is today.

Go read this from the Second Amendment Foundation to see the research.

http://www.saf.org/LawReviews/Zimring68.htm

No gun law has ever been shown to impact gun crime in any meaningful way, since 1934.

Even the 1934 National Firearms Act, outlawing machineguns, has had a questionable impact on crime. Criminal use of machine guns is about as common today as it was pre-1934 except for a very short period of time in Chicago during prohibition. Repealing prohibition actually stopped the gun violence more than outlawing machine guns did.
 
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Background checks do not infringe the rights of permitted persons. Oh, I might have to wait 15 minutes longer to buy my gun. But I am still permitted to buy it and take it home. If you think those extra minutes are an infringement, then you've never waited in line to vote...

Waiting periods, after a clean bg check, I disagree with entirely.
 
I actually think background checks are a good idea. However, they should not be required for sales that don't involve a FFL, becuase only a FFL can run the background check.

Even though most criminals don't buy from a gun shop, it probably stops a few. And, why do you think they don't buy from a gun shop? Maybe because of background checks.
 
If we truly punished bad actors and built a deterrence around the background check would be moot. Instead we have to prove we're innocent. Hold the individual accountable not the tool. Does an auto dealership do a background check for DUI?, Illegal Alien?, no? How many people die because of people buying cars? Forget gang banger on gang banger, more innocent familes die from drunks behind the wheel than drive bys. Targeted enforcement based upon idealogy? You bet.

A study a while back found that the "gun" charges were the most "dropped" charge in plea agreements. Fix that first.

This country needs to get back to it's roots and stop putting citizens in a pen like sheep on the way to slaughter. Germany failed to do this; learn from history or be ready to repeat it. :fire:

Otherwise your national identity card will be like a Visa Card, "Don't leave home without it".
 
It is a felony for a convicted felon to even try to buy a gun. One of the problems that I have with a background check is this: When a convicted felon tries to buy a gun, lies when filling out the form and is turned down; nothing happens. Felons who are turned down for a weapons purchase are almost never prosecuted.
 
It is a felony for a convicted felon to even try to buy a gun. One of the problems that I have with a background check is this: When a convicted felon tries to buy a gun, lies when filling out the form and is turned down; nothing happens. Felons who are turned down for a weapons purchase are almost never prosecuted.

Very true.

Here's a little of fact on that, though several years old.

Prosecutions of Brady law violations have been miniscule. Despite a possible ten year sentence for felons attempting to purchase a firearm, Bovard's column tells us, "[t]he number of convictions from prosecutions for making false statements on Brady forms declined from 253 in 1994 to 36 in 1997.
 
Did not read all of the posts, but I would like to make a point or two:

1 You do not have to have a driver's license OR insurance to OWN a car, you have to have them to operate a car on public roads. Many people (including children) own cars and have no license OR insurance. For ths reason, I have no problem with CCW permits.

2 I don't know that a license should be required to practice medicine. Make it optional. The market will take care of the rest.

3 Restraining orders do not appear on BG checks. Therefore, the argument that domestic abusers are prevented from buying weapons is false. Anyhow, a restraining order is a civil process, and the rules of evidence are much lower (preponderance of evidence for civil, beyond a reasonable doubt for criminal, plus no jury for civil, etc. DV restraining orders are a travesty.) I don't think a restraining order should be enough to remove a person's rights.

4 The bar for what constitutes a felony is lower every year. It used to be that felons were a danger to society. Nowadays you are a felon for stupid reasons- like in Texas it is a felony to own more than 4 sex toys. In Texas, it is a misdemeanor to smoke pot in your home, unless your home is within 1,000 feet of a school, it becomes a felony. 1,001 feet- OK, 999 feet, felony. Pure nonsense.

5 Poverty rates have more to do with violent crime than gun ownership. BG checks have not worked. It is a failed experiment.I knew that would be the case. After all, drugs are illegal. Anyone think you would have a problem getting drugs in your hometown?
 
You don't have a natural right, protected by the Constitution, to a credit card. You do have such a right to keep and bear firearms. It's that simple.

Any "regulation" of arms is an infringement.
 
Sohcgt2 posted:

Filling out 2 pages and waiting while a clerk calls it in is not an infringement.

Yes it is.

Hold the individual accountable not the tool.

+1 We say it all the time.

BTW,

Credit card companies don't run 'background' checks, they run credit checks. It has been said numerous times, so once more won't hurt: having a credit card is NOT a constitutionally protected right.
 
Fact is people were different back them it is now a Me me me, generation, If that helped any.

The point being that the law should not be there in the first place.

See I think we have all just become complacent with these laws, It will most likely never happen, unless everything goes down, How would we change it I keep asking, the courts even since Heller are still anti, and if you proposed wiping all gun laws out in congress you would be laughed to scorn, couple with the fact that the vast majority of people would oppose it.
 
Anyone who is fine with background checks are the same type of people who say " hey searching someones house without a warrant is fine with me, it's in the name of homeland security ". or hey you may have freedom of speech, but you cant call a police officer a name because you might hurt his feelings so we'll let him arrest you. and yall wonder why we are losing our rights, you wimps compromise because you are afraid of your own government. thats where government wants you, to afraid to act out and get things changed. I dont need someone telling me I cant yell fire in a theater, or telling me I cant threaten a person, I dont condone those actions, but the first amendment gives me the right to say WHATEVER I want, no where do I read a restriction. I think half you people forgot that the second amendment say shall not be infringed. that means no compromise. sure the back ground checks sounds good to some, but do you really think that if it was done away with that criminals will buy their guns from a gun shop??? I think they would rather buy a glock from someone who stole it for $150 than buy a new one from a shop for $500. so if you do away with the check, it just keeps future 4473's from the hands of the BATFE. No one thinks of these things, most here are too naive to think that the feds wont take your 4473's. whats to stop them? they are the federal government they have nothing to fear in this day and age. 100 years ago if politics was as it is now, the streets of DC would be blood laiden, and there would be ZERO gun laws left. but yall are more concerned about American Idol than American liberties. Like Thomas Jefferson said and as I have in my signature, Join or Die. and about every quote noted from our founding fathers has come true.
 
I tend to think I'm pretty 2A, 70+ firearms currently and I shoot quite a bit. I really don't have a problem with instant background checks, if that's the only price I pay to try to make it difficult for bad guys to buy guns I'm ok with that.

Sure they can probably get them on the street, but I really don't like the idea of them just walking into any gun shop and picking out what they want. And no, I don't think convicted felons have any rights, they gave those up when they became convicted felons.

Now if only the gov't goons would acutally arrest and convict those felons they claim they have stopped from buying a gun using NICS.
 
Sure they can probably get them on the street, but I really don't like the idea of them just walking into any gun shop and picking out what they want. And no, I don't think convicted felons have any rights, they gave those up when they became convicted felons.

dang I thought I made a pretty obvious arguement. they arent hardly gonna buy them from a shop. I can go to my local shop and get a glock for $500, or I can go over to cleveland and get one on the street for $150 or less. now if I'm a criminal am I going to pay $500 for a legal gun or $150 for an illegal one. Not too hard of a choice for a criminal. and just because you own guns doesnt make you pretty 2a. the same people who might own a bunch of shotguns and boltguns can be the same people screaming ban "assault rifles" if you're willing to compromise then you arent an asset, you're a liability. but what do I know, in my governments eyes im just a rightwing radical terrorist, and so are you
 
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