What's wrong with my country?

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Correia,

I agree almost completely with your assessment; however, looks ARE important -- perceptions of our police and military DO matter. With SWAT teams masked, for example, it DOES change one's behavior if one is anonymous. I posit that similar things happen when one is dressed in heavy body armor and carrying automatic weapons.

As others have pointed out in this thread, how does the heavy body armor and other tac gear help stop a suicide bomber? Or a car bomb, or other terrorist attacks? If the Powers that Be think police are the number one target, thus necessitating all the extra military gear, I would have to politely disagree, seeing as how civillians seem to be blown up all the time in other countries. I'm not arguing that cops don't get killed or targeted, but enough to warrant the gear that is illegal for non-police to own (if they so desire)?

The most brutal police states in history have been operated by guys in suits with Walther PPs or Makarovs.
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Also true. However, they also had a huge brutal, well-armed and well-equipped (relatively speaking) military at their beck and call whenever needed.
 
Why do you make the assumption that the gear has anything at all to do with terrorism?

An article? From New York? Yeah, because that is reliable. More than likely this was a photo op. Hey Frank, put your crap on and let's take a picture.

The armor has pretty obvious reasons. As do long guns. The same reason we own the same guns. And some of us own the same armor.

(if you live in a sucky state, I apologize, but the rest of us can own this stuff)

The masks have some uses in some small roles, but I think they're overused by a lot of departments for intimidation. But if you're working with anything that may catch fire (most drug operations) masks make sense. (usually the ones they're wearing are nomex fire resistant) If you're working with bangs, masks make sense. And if you also work plainclothes, undercover, narcotics, gang taskforce, etc, then masks make sense.

Plus masks don't usually get used in real life because they're hot, and uncomfortable. Plus the cop usually has his name on his vest.

But the dude in this picture isn't even wearing a mask.

But hey, this is L&P, let's not let that hold us back from having a good old fashioned whine fest. But we can't actually do something constructive to prevent bad policing, we can't get to know our local cops, get involved in local politics, get involved with the local PD, get the local media up in arms over abuses, or anything like that. We need to complain randomly (IN EVERY THREAD) on the internet to a bunch of random people, and hope somebody else does that stuff.

Because us real freedom lovers won't do anything until the revolution. (see, that's a pretty easy one for the couch commandos to claim, because you, know, that's in the future or something). :rolleyes:
 
An article? From New York? Yeah, because that is reliable. More than likely this was a photo op. Hey Frank, put your crap on and let's take a picture.
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Well Not exactly. The Photo caption.
A heavily armed member of the New York Police Department patrols Times Square Friday, June 29, 2007 in New York. New York strengthened its already-tight security as a precaution after police in London's bustling nightclub and theater district on Friday defused a bomb that could have killed hundreds after an ambulance crew spotted smoke coming from a Mercedes filled with a lethal mix of gasoline, propane and nails, authorities said. (AP Photo/Mary Altaffer)
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As I had said earlier, It is not this Photo, as much as the Militarization of the police, and the tactics employed.
 
As I had said earlier,
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Yes, in about 20 other threads on the same topic.

Now what are you going to do about it?

Besides post more stuff here about how angry you are?
 
Geeze,

I swear. Many on this forum and in this thread, prepare and even practice for events they have never had happen to them, not even once. But when a cop is shown to be prepared, they get stupid, or more stupid.
 
I would trade you the military patroling our city here in New Orleans, for over a year, for your storm troopers. Our military here actually on occasions shoots and kills people. I have no problem with that I am just tired of feeling like we are undersiege and in a military state by seeing their vechicles everywhere and pulling people over etc...
 
Now what are you going to do about it?
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Raise awareness here and elsewhere.
Vote for Ron Paul and others that will oppose a police state.
Other than speaking and voting there is not much that can be done. Yet.
 
Raise awareness here and elsewhere.
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Trust me, here is covered. We've beaten this horse into paste on this forum. In fact, we've gone on about it for so long, and with such vehemence that we've managed to chase away most of the good cops that post here.

Because even though they're good guys, trying to do the right thing, and they're your single best bet against a police state, they can only be the forum pinata for so long.

Other than speaking and voting there is not much that can be done. Yet.
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Do you know your local cops?
Have you done anything with your local deparment?
Have you let the local police administration know how you feel about this?
Have you gotten together a group of like minded citizens to let the admin know how you feel?
Have you spoken with your state legislators?
Have you found legislators who agree with you, and you've worked with them to push good bills at the state and local level preventing abuse?
Have you got editorials in the local paper?
Have you found local abuses and drawn attention to them?
Have you found who in your local media is sympathetic to this issue?
Have you gotten that person to push stories to the general public about this issue?
If you have a bad sheriff, have you led a campaign to get him unelected?
If you have bad local politicians forcing this kind of thing, have you gotten them unelected?
If you have a bad department, you've worked with the municipality to get them fired and replaced. (and this has been done, by members of this forum!)


Yet
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I love the yet. Because you know, if Ron Paul doesn't save us, then maybe somebody else will, or else the revolution will cleanse everything. Because that is in the future. :rolleyes:

Screw Yet. Do stuff now. If this forum spent a tenth as much energy doing the above, as they did complaining to other gun nuts, this wouldn't be an issue.

But then what would we have to complain about? Illegal aliens? The CFR? Heck pick something. This is L&P!
 
First the heavy duty military gear was for the SWAT Team, they were trained for hostage standoffs, then it became the gear of the drug raid, against all those heavily armed drug dealers, then they started to use these guys to make routine arrests, and serve no knock warrants, and do dynamic entries on suspects who might be violent (not sure no prior history) for officer safety.

Now they just stand on the corner to make us feel safe In case a terrorist might come along.

USA patriot act Office of Homeland Security, increased budgets for all police agencies when crime in general is down. So what are all these heavily armed, well trained officers going to do when no terrorists show up???

Well they will just have to find some to justify their budgets.

Thats what worries me.

And yes I like guns just like the one that officer carries, guns belong in the hands of the citizens. Armys belong on battlefields.



Anyone discern a pattern here?
 
Holy cow Correia! Between the PM's we exchanged and your posts here... what's the deal? Did someone kick your dog?

Seriously, do you want to know why activism isn't getting so much traffic? I can only speak for myself, but others would probably agree... there's just not much we can do, that we aren't already doing. I mostly come to L&P for news.

In the past few months since I joined THR, I've been far more politically active than at any prior time in my life. I've written to my congresscritter. Of course I vote. And I've tried to raise awareness among my friends and colleagues -- with some success I might add. The local politics here are pretty good, so I don't feel much need to get overly involved with that.

I can write to members of congress, but I don't have the money to make them care. Of course I can't protest in front of the president unless I want to be arrested.

Many of my friends are, like myself, economically liberal and socially libertarian. Yet there aren't any liberal-libertarian candidates to support. [Example.] What's left to do, other than blow off some steam here?

Do you know your local cops?
Have you done anything with your local deparment?
Have you let the local police administration know how you feel about this?
Have you gotten together a group of like minded citizens to let the admin know how you feel?
Have you spoken with your state legislators?
Have you found legislators who agree with you, and you've worked with them to push good bills at the state and local level preventing abuse?
Have you got editorials in the local paper?
Have you found local abuses and drawn attention to them?
Have you found who in your local media is sympathetic to this issue?
Have you gotten that person to push stories to the general public about this issue?
If you have a bad sheriff, have you led a campaign to get him unelected?
If you have bad local politicians forcing this kind of thing, have you gotten them unelected?
If you have a bad department, you've worked with the municipality to get them fired and replaced. (and this has been done, by members of this forum!)
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I don't see how knowing the local police would help anything. The problem occurs at the legislative and judicial levels, where police are given sovereign immunity, and weapons and tactics which are often not available to the general population.

But you know this already.

This isn't a problem everywhere, and AFAIK the police in my small town are pretty good. But I feel for the people in NYC, where that picture was taken, who aren't allowed to arm or defend themselves.


I don't care what gear they have. I only care about how they behave.
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THINK for a moment. What is the purpose of that gear? Do you really think that officer is wearing all that gear in the expectation that he'll get into a shootout with terrorists?

Hardly. It's intended purpose is intimidation.
 
Methinks that the image is so foolish and pointless as to be worthy of scornful laughter.

Poor bloke must feel self-conscious about having to pose as just so much security window dressing.
 
Correia,

What did I say in my post that was objectionable, tin foil hat-related, out of line, or whining?

I know very well that the cop pictured wasn't wearing a mask. I used mask wearing as an example of the more subtle, but more important idea of psychological use. You gave legitimate reasons for cops to wear them. Great.

I try to be as fair and balanced as possible when it comes to policing, so I am a bit angry at being lumped into a category in which I feel like I don't belong.

Also, what nobody special said could be said for me as well.
 
Maybe I started a bit of a shi-ite storm here. What I was talking about was the fact that during the 40+ years I've been walking around this beautiful country, I never saw cops in full tac gear with rifle at the ready, just standing around, or patrolling, as they called it. I saw officers in standard uniform on the beat, in car and on foot. I watched police sidearms go from wheel gun to auto, but it was the same officer carrying it, the same guy who would help change a tire for a little old lady, and help a lost kid get home. Not stand around, "Keep moving, citizens, keep moving."
What struck me was the pic I had seen just a day or two earlier of a Brit policeman in an English airport, same style getup, with an MP5 across the body, and I thought, sheesh, must suck to live in total fear all the time, relying on the benevolent agents of the Crown for your protection.
Then I saw this pic.
 
People worry about the wrong things. You can have full freedom, or total security but not both. The cost of living in a free and open society is that sometimes there will be things like 9/11. If you adopt a police state mentaility to counter terrorism, then the terrorists have already won.

It should be remembered that one of the objectives of classical terrorism is to create a reaction by the state, making the security so onerous that the people themselves will rebel against the government.

It's also worth remembering that for all those who dies in 9/11, about the same number die every 21 days on Americas roads. The only thing the reaction to 9/11 has really accomplished is that we have created a huge security industry - from DHS on down. We've increase the size of government, and the nature of all goverments is to control and evetually opress. That is why the founding fathers warned us that the price of freedom is ternal vigilance - not against our enemies, but out own government.

Well meaning bureaucrats are far more a danger to your life and liberty than any terrorist. Heck, by many politician's definition, most of the people on this board are terrorists.

Think about that.
 
Now, now...we can't all be martyrs that are "doing something" about it. Just because you've seen a million threads doesn't mean the new people that attend this board every day have. No need to go all holier than thou on us.
 
Cold War. War on Drugs. War on Terror. War for Oil. Gang War. Be afraid. Pay us more taxes to keep you "safe".

Maybe it's time to start halving budgets, halving bureaucracy, paying off the deficit, then lowering taxes. Throw in concealed carry permits and no-duty-to-retreat laws all across the U.S. and Canada. Warn criminals it will be difficult to do jail time when they're lying in the morgue. Throw in a dash of personal responsibility and courtesy towards your fellow human beings.

Actually, nevermind. Too outrageous.
 
you know what that guy is really thinking?

"Dam I have to wear this crap for another 4 hours, I wish I could be at home with my wife and kids. And these dam people will not stop taking pictures."
 
If you don't like the topics why not lock the thread or ban the offensive posters? Why do you try to berate them or belittle them in public? Like I said to another mod a few months back when I first came here...I came here for discussion, information sharing and debate so I can prepare before I go out looking for converts...or in this case how to go about making an impact. Maybe you can share the wisdom without the lightning bolts and thunder.
 
Militarizing the police may placate the fears of some but it is a dangerous and unnecessary precedent to set. Display of force should be used sparingly and appropriately. Arming the masses is not the answer either; It is unfortunate but the masses tend to be ill-suited to weaponry. We are a long way away from the generally responsible weapon ownership of the 1770's. Simply put there are too many stupid people in America.
 
if it wanst for stupid poor people, the ritch wouldn't have any income, or power. how many check n go's are in your town? the foundation of capitalism is "stupid poor people". culture of fear. jet fuel doesnt turn iron into liquid.
 
Sorry, but I expect cops looking like that on the streets of a banana republic, not in the U.S.

Having done a good bit of political work, I can say that cozying up with the cops and politicos to try to change things doesn't work.

Here's how the paramilitary police disease goes,

1. The feds, to fight drugs/terrorism/today's hip new hobgoblin, offer money to county and local law enforcement for paramilitary gear.

2. Local politicos and law enforcement heads get those little dollar signs in their eyes and jump through flaming hoops and over helicopter blades for those grants.

3. The grants only cover the gear and training. The counties and localities have to pay the bills afterwards.

4. To justify the ubergear and ninja wannabes being around, they start to use them for things like, serving warrants.

5. And now you too have your overused tacticool SWAT cats running all over hell, half of Georgia, and the occasional wrong address (Like wow man, sorry we shot your dog and grandma.)

Pardon me for being cynical, but what exactly are militarized police good for?
 
jkomp316,
I never said stupid poor people, how much money you have does not indicate how intelligent/rational you are.
A rich man does not have power unless you give it to him.
This is not a discussion about the economy or the balance of power/distribution of wealth.
Im in the military, have you ever been in a town near any military base? Check-n-go type companies thrive on the military.
You seem to dislike the wealthy, I would bet you still consider yourself better than the guy at the gas-n-go or the kid at the McD's.

..now where was I?

There is a culture of fear being developed in the states. I hate to see how it has grown each time I return to the states. I hope someday we might see our nation stand proud. The media has been playing on irrational fears since the earliest uses of propaganda. They got used to the sensationalism.
Too many people are not responsible enough with cars, alcohol and their own freakin' kids to be truly responsible with a firearm. I am a big fan of firearms awareness and training. I believe everyone should learn to defend themselves also. We should not be a nation of sheep guarded by so few shepherds. I wish our nation could function more like switzerland does defensively. A nation where almost every man over the age of 18 has military duty under his belt and keeps an assault rifle at home, yet also a nation with very little violent crime. "Most Armed, All Free" is their national creed. Denmark works in a very similar manner. Sadly in America abuses of the freedoms we have are leading to regulation and restriction; the sheepish masses would have us live in a fluffy "safe" world, living tightly regulated "safe" lives. Sadly many would give up freedom to be free from fear.
Sadly too many have already given up the freedom to think.
 
"There is a culture of fear being developed in the states."

And it's threatening to take over this board.

All together now, "THE SKY IS FALLING."
 
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