When does engraver or stock refinisher need an FFL?

[NavyLCDR]

Hi, LCDR,

The statute says nothing about overnight. But the statute says anyone doing customizing needs an FFL and that means he has to keep a book.

Really? Show me that statute that says ANYONE doing customizing needs an FFL. That is not at all what the statute actually says, is it? What does the actual statute say? I even posted it for handy reference.

The statute says a person ENGAGED IN THE BUSINESS OF......

I cannot understand why it is impossible for you and some others to understand that a person who is not ENGAGED IN THE BUSINESS OF does NOT require an FFL!

If I am doing a favor and not trying to make money for livelihood or profit, not ENGAGED IN THE BUSINESS OF, then I am NOT required to have an FFL, whether I keep the gun for 1 hour or 1 year.

Can you not see the words ENGAGED IN THE BUSINESS OF in the statutes?!? That is the deciding factor....NOT how long I keep the gun!

 

[brickeyee]

Can you not see the words ENGAGED IN THE BUSINESS OF in the statutes?!? That is the deciding factor....NOT how long I keep the gun!

Maybe the words hive more syllables than they can handle?:banghead:

 

[rbernie]

I cannot understand why it is impossible for you and some others to understand that a person who is not ENGAGED IN THE BUSINESS OF does NOT require an FFL!

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/gunsmiths.html

I note that it states that an FFL is required if the repair or modification is done by someone 'in business'. I also note that it clearly articulates the issue associated with an overnight storage of a firearm/receiver, i.e. needing to be logged into the bound book for an overnight stay.

 

[NavyLCDR]

I note that it states that an FFL is required if the repair or modification is done by someone 'in business'. I also note that it clearly articulates the issue associated with an overnight storage of a firearm/receiver, i.e. needing to be logged into the bound book for an overnight stay.

There are two completely separate statutes/regulations that some people are confusing.

The first statute is 18 USC 923 which applies to everyone. That statute says that only people who are ENGAGED IN THE BUSINESS OF repairing firearms are required to be licensed (FFLs). If you are not ENGAGED IN THE BUSINESS OF repairing firearms and are only doing a favor for someone or do hobby work, then no FFL is required, regardless of if you keep the firearm 1 hour or 1 year, assuming there are no prohibitions in state law regarding the transfer/loaning of firearms between same state residents.

The second regulation which is somewhere in the Code of Federal Regulations applies ONLY to FFLs. It tells them how they must conduct their BUSINESS. That regulation, which applies only to FFLs, states that a gunsmith is not required to log a firearm in and out of their bound book if they do the repair while the customer waits. That regulation applies ONLY to ALREADY LICENSED gunsmiths. It in no way requires a non-licensed person to obtain a license.

Look at it this way - lets say my next door neighbor loans me a rifle to hunt with and I am going to keep it for a month because we are going to go hunting several times. Nothing illegal about that. No FFL required. Now lets say I break the rear sight blade which I can replace myself. So, according to some people I must obtain an FFL in order to replace the broken sight blade because I am/have kept the gun overnight. Complete B.S. I hate to be blunt, but that's what it is...

Again, "ENGAGED IN THE BUSINESS OF" is NOT defined by how long a person keeps a gun. "ENGAGED IN THE BUSINESS OF" is defined by doing the action repetitively for the purpose of livelihood and gain.

The statement that a person who installs night sights at a gun show does NOT require an FFL because the action is done while the 'customer' waits is B.S. too. If that person is repetitively doing it for the purpose of livelihood and profit. That DOES require a license.

 

[N003k]

Rbernie, something I think important to note is that the first question in essence defines a gunsmith, who would require an FFL. The SECOND question, that addresses the overnight part, is a question that applies to gunsmiths.

Its an if A if true, then you must B. If you are a gunsmith, then keeping a gun overnight requires logging it in a boundbook.

Also, it the question asks if EVERY gun a gunsmith (who the previous question defines as a person in the business of engraving, customizing, refinishing or repairing firearms) has to be logged in their boundbook. It then makes an exception for those firearms they don't keep overnight.

I've often seen it encouraged on here not to take chances with these types of things. I'd say trying to make a business of this as per the OP would be risky if the ATF tries to make an example of you if you rely on not keeping the gun overnight. You might get away with it, just like you could probably get away with not being 922(r) compliant, or any other number of laws that are rarely enforced...but, the law seems clear that it WOULD be a violation, and thus not worth the risk IMO.

 

[Frank Ettin]

As I see it, there are really two issues.

[1] Transfer

If you give someone your gun to work on, and he keeps it for a while to do so, you have transferred [possession of] the gun to him. So whatever laws apply to transfers of guns apply to giving someone your gun to work on.

If you and the guy you give the gun to both live in the same State, whatever state laws regulating private transfer would apply. And in most States, no formalities are required for a private transfer, so the transfer wouldn't be an issue. There may be a few States that are more restrictive, so one would have to look at the specific laws in those few States.

But if the guy you give your gun to lives in another State, federal laws regarding interstate transfer of guns will apply. Any problems that might arise under those law are pretty much solved when the guy working on your gun has an FFL.

[2] Engaged in Business

NavyLCDR has, in posts 19 and 29, has cited some applicable law, as has rbernie in post 28. Essentially, one only needs a license if he is "engaged in the business" of gunsmithing, and the applicable statutes define that in some general terms. The trick is always how the law applies to actual facts in a particular situation.

There is probably a fair amount of case law on the question of what sort of conduct constitutes being "engaged in business", because that's a standard that applies to a lot of different sorts of things. I'm not, however, going to do the research.

But I think it's fairly clear that doing work a few times a year for local folks, like friends or members of your gun club, and only being reimbursed for materials, would not constitute "being engaged in business." On the other hand, I think it's pretty clear that if you're buying advertising space and soliciting gunsmithing work, there's an excellent chance that a judge would conclude that you are "engaged in business." But exactly where between those extremes "hobby" becomes "business" could be a little murky, depending on the facts.

I also don't think whether or not you're making a profit will be determinative. If the amount of time and effort you're devoting to an activity appears consistent with "being engaged in business" and you're not making money, it might only mean that you're a lousy businessman.

 

[Dmitri Popov]

I believe the most important thing to notice in the OP is where he says "hobbyist". That is the most important thing he says. Since this means he is obviously not doing it as a business, just a hobby. So long as he doesn't turn it into a business or a primary source of income, I see no actual legal ground the ATF could have for anything. Of course you have to remember that the ATF doesn't really seem to care what the law is...

 

[langenc]

Jack booted thugs!!

 

[Frank Ettin]

I believe the most important thing to notice in the OP is where he says "hobbyist". That is the most important thing he says. Since this means he is obviously not doing it as a business, just a hobby....

No, actually what the OP says is, for legal purposes, pretty unimportant.

It's probably true that based on the way he described his activities, if accurate and as long as he charges just for materials and doesn't charge a fee, he probably is a hobbyist. But one's self proclamation in general doesn't mean much in court.

Whether one is engaged in business, or just pursuing a hobby, will be decided objectively, based on exactly what he is doing and how he is doing it -- not on the basis of what he says about what he is doing.

NavyLCDR and rbernie have provided some information on the legal rules. How those rules may apply to various fact situations will have to be determined based on case law. I'm not going to do the research that would be appropriate to venture an opinion as to whether under one set of particular facts, or some other set of particular facts, one is likely to be determined to be engaged in business or pursuing a hobby.

 

[jdh]

A nosey neighbor sees people carrying guns in and out of your "workshop". The neighbor calls the local ATF office and reports "the man at 123 Anystreet is running a gun repair shop in his garage". ATF gives the tipster a bait gun and has them go to you to get it repaired/customized. Being the good neighbor you are you gladly do it just charging for the parts and return the bait gun back to the neighbor. All is well until one day the ATF SWAT team drives up your driveway and through the garage door in the APC with battering ram welded to the front. Flash-bangs follow through the opening. You are cuffed, stuffed, and carted off while the neighborhood enjoys the live episode of COPS. Now you have to defend yourself against the full might of the Imperial Federal Government. Your life in in turmoil. Eventually (measured in decades) you beat the rap. You sold everything you ever had to do it and you are now living in your parents basement, but you won.

Is it all worth it to save the $200 license fee and a little paperwork?

 

[skipjack]

I recently went through a rather extensive audit by ATF.
I did not find them to be "jack booted thugs" at all.
They have regulations, and if you get a license, it is your
duty to know and abide by those regulations, even if you
think the regulations are unfair.

No flashbang grenades were utilized in the several days
that I spent with the agents.

If you attempt to engage in the business, and you do not
want to get a license, I have no sympathy for you when
the ATF or your state firearms officials come knocking on
your door. I do not agree with every regulation, but I do
my best to make sure they are all followed.


Doing a favor for a friend, and getting reimbursed for parts
is one thing. Doing it repeatedly and getting something
in return for your time and "expertise" will make you the
subject of ATF scrutiny.

 

[Birch Knoll]

That's because audits are carried out by the Industry Operations folks, Federal beancounters.

The law-enforcement side of ATF's house is the pointy end of the stick, enamored of armed raids and kitten-stomping.