When Home Security Breaks Down

[Creaky_Old_Cop]

Using more force than is necessary can defeat a self defense case.

"Using more force than is reasonable can defeat a self defense case" is the term you're reaching for. Necessary and Proportional Force is reserved to law enforcement in the performance of sworn duties, sworn personnel are charged with the duty to pursue, lay hands on, and take into custody using only that level of force which is reasonable, proportional, or necessary to accomplish that duty safely, and to immediately reduce the level of force as resistance diminishes.

Civilians (Me included now, thank God, since I retired) are limited to the use of Reasonable Force, or in the nomenclature of some jurisdictions Equal Force to defend ourselves from an attack upon our person or other crimes because there is NO duty to "pursue, lay hands on, and take into custody" and the civilian trying to be some sort of masturbatory hero fantasy Rambo by doing so can create a larger danger to the public at large, and most likely get the wannabe hero killed because they're out of their depth in a mud puddle anyway.

In order to be justified in any use of force under the Reasonable Man Principle, one must be able to articulate why a reasonable man, in the same circumstances, knowing what you knew at the time would act in the same way.

 

[Kleanbore]

Using more force than is reasonable can defeat a self defense case" is the term you're reaching for.

True--good put. I would phrase it "more force than is reasonably necessary".

Necessary and Proportional Force is reserved to law enforcement in the performance of sworn duties,.... Civilians ...are limited to the use of Reasonable Force, or in the nomenclature of some jurisdictions Equal Force to defend ourselves from an attack upon our person or other crimes

Different subject. I was referring to the use of more force than is necessary to defend oneself, by continuing to harm an attacker after he no longer constitutes a threat.

Proportionality is a key element of lawful civilian self defense. Unless the defender is threatened with imminent death or serious injury, he may not employ deadly force to defend himself. If non-deadly physical force is called for, such force must be proportional to the force with which the defender is threatened.

 

[entropy]

In September, 1966, a fiend broke a panel of glass in a home on Lake Michigan, opened the door and entered, ascended the stairs, and savagely committed the first murder in the history of Kenilworth, IL. The victim was Valerie Percy, one of the twin daugthers of Republican political candidate Charles H. Percy. The murder weapon is believed to have been a WWII bayonet. The crime has never been solved.

The manually-operated burglar arm was a stand alone device that only made noise. It was turned on after the murder had been committed, to no avail.

Percy was elected to the US Senate that year, and the family moved to the Washington DC area.

Percy did not believe in the ownership of firearms by private citizens, and he did not own one. In his new home, Chuck had good deadbolts put in. They always remained unlocked until day's end, at which time everyone in the family was expected to be in the house, and Percy went around locking every lock.

Apparently, he thought that home invasions only happened at night.

Senator Percy gave the commencement address at my college graduation in June, 1967. I cannot remember a word he said.

Over the decades, I have come around to appreciate much about Percy, but not his stand on gun control, and not his ideas on---Strategies, Tactics, and Training

This basically click bait. An interesting read, nonetheless.

 

[Kleanbore]

This basically click bait.

There are several important things that can be learned from it.

 

[entropy]

True, if only that liberals have the strange belief that others will always play by the(ir) rules and are shocked when they don't.

 

[Kleanbore]

True, if only that liberals have the strange belief that others will always play by the(ir) rules and are shocked when they don't.

You would limit that to "liberals"?

Some other points:

• "Violent crime does not happen here".
• Locking all the doors only at bedtime...
• Do not rely on a door lock that can be reached by cutting a glass panel.
• How useful is a manual burglar alarm that is not connected to anything and is turned on after the crime has been committed?

 

[entropy]

No, actually, but they seem to be the most flabbergasted when it happens to them, as in " How DARE they.....!" Most everyone else are more like "....yeah, I should have thought it through."

 

[Creaky_Old_Cop]

True--good put. I would phrase it "more force than is reasonably necessary".

Different subject. I was referring to the use of more force than is necessary to defend oneself, by continuing to harm an attacker after he no longer constitutes a threat.

Proportionality is a key element of lawful civilian self defense. Unless the defender is threatened with imminent death or serious injury, he may not employ deadly force to defend himself. If non-deadly physical force is called for, such force must be proportional to the force with which the defender is threatened.

Once again obfuscating. Good show. At least your consistent in being incorrect.

 

[Kleanbore]

Once again obfuscating. Good show. At least your consistent in being incorrect.

What I said is most certainly correct. See this--all of it--and pay particular attention to the video starting at 3:52.

https://lawofselfdefense.com/beginjourney/​

 

[Smokin Gator]

About the only reason anyone would break into my home would be to steal..... the guns themselves. Ironic.

We really have nothing in the house of any real dollar value other then firearms, shooting gear and ammo, components. Our personal momentos have only value to us. No valuable electronics. A couple of years old medium sized big screens that would be no big deal.

 

[The Night Rider]

The problem with this discussion is the people who most need to read it will never see it.

Anything I might say about home security here would just be preaching to the choir.

I remember my first night working as an armed guard my trainer saying he didn't understand why people felt the need to carry handguns.

He carried one at work because G4S paid him to but in his mind a Real Man defended himself with his fists.

I remember asking him about dealing with the people we ran into every night. I'm not sure how to explain it but he thought they only existed in our patrol area.

The really weird thing was one of the worst places we had to check was right behind his house. I called it "The Shopping Cart Graveyard" because of all the abandoned shopping carts the homeless people left there.

It was like he thought his back fence was some kind of magic barrier between him and the "Bad People".

 

[Mikhail Weiss]

Over 45 years ago my wife and I moved into a new home. About 4 months later someone busted in our back door, blew the brains out of our Doberman all over the kitchen floor, and robbed us. Luckily neither of us were home at the time. Took me about three weeks to talk my wife into coming back home. Understandably so. Had only one communication with law enforcement after that happened about 6 months later. They called and asked if I knew who did it.

Don't expect big brother to take care of you. It's far easier and more trendy these days for them to go after law abiding citizens that are trying to protect themselves rather than dealing with the hassles of dealing with criminals. Sorry. Had to get this off my chest.

Damn. Sorry to hear that, even if it was over 45 years ago.