When the police lose their base

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labgrade

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Had this knocking around in my head for years now. Figured it's time to throw it out for discussion. Hope it covers the bases, while remaining civil & certainly not a cop-bashing thread.

I'd seriously like to hear some opinions of where this country's going - & what to expect.

What will the police do when the majority (enough) decide we've had it with you enforcing unconstitutional laws?

As a observation, I'll say that the majority of laws that y'all enforce are illegal - whether condoned by the courts, or not. Frankly, the courts are as corrupt, in their political bent, as are your enforcement of same.

The continual militarisation of "civilian" police makes me believe that posse comitatis is as dead as, well, anybody already dead. Matters not to me if I was jacked by the real military, or a "wanna be force" of same-equiped, same mindset, same trained civilian group. Results are the same.

OK. My verbage has crept into my writing style & I appologize. Apearance of a bias has krept in, huh?

I'm pi$$ed off with some responder's attempt at "we own you" & worse - in the name of public safety.

I've mentioned it before, & will again here.

We, the law-abiding, are your (LEOs) most strong allys. We hold these same thruths & want, WANT, you to do what you need to serve the communities you do.

But, you're getting out of line.

What will happen?
 
labgrade asked what might happen given the attainment of the following siuation(s): "What will the police do when the majority (enough) decide we've had it with you enforcing unconstitutional laws?"


I suspect that were the above situation to develope, there would be significant bloodshed, and violence. Interestingly, I'm less than certain as to which side would "win" the argument, or might "battle" be a better term, in part because I'm less than certain as to how many of the people would behave as SHEEPLE compared to how many might be driven to action. I doubt that anyone else does either.
 
I'd seriously like to hear some opinions of where this country's going - & what to expect.
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We are going to become a Socialist Superpower. That is, if we don't collapse from within first.

In the 1960s or 1970s how many people thought the USSR would collapse in 1990? The US COULD collapse in 30 years. I think it will...and the government will seize more control and "free" areas of the country will be all but lost. Expect all of the states to be worse than the PRK is now...much worse.

What will the police do when the majority (enough) decide we've had it with you enforcing unconstitutional laws?
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When the PEOPLE as a whole decide they have had enough. That is not going to happen. We are a country divided.

As a observation, I'll say that the majority of laws that y'all enforce are illegal - whether condoned by the courts, or not. Frankly, the courts are as corrupt, in their political bent, as are your enforcement of same.
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Welcome to the machine! It can't be stopped, only slowed.

I'm pi$$ed off with some responder's attempt at "we own you" & worse - in the name of public safety.
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I am glad you are. Not everyone will roll over for the government. Not yet. I don't think they should, but they will. The Socialists and SHEEPLE will win by sheer numbers.

We, the law-abiding, are your (LEOs) most strong alleys. We hold these same truths & want, WANT, you to do what you need to serve the communities you do.
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Remember some communities (a lot of them in fact) vote for unconstitutional laws and WANT their police to enforce them. This is often overlooked.
 
"As a observation, I'll say that the majority of laws that y'all enforce are illegal..."

That's a pretty hard premise to start this thread off. Outside of the WOsD, a host of periphreal firearm laws and the "no knock" service that comes out of these, I say the vast majority of day to day action by the cops falls under the enforcement of serious breeches of etiquette; endangering others by irresponsible driving, theft of all sorts, violent treatment of one's loved ones and neighbors. Things in Colorado may be different.

Civil law enforcement can not function without the consent and at least passive support of virtually all citizens. Look at the neighborhoods where large/violent gangs have a strong foothold. Minor violations get ignored and resources are channeled to the big stuff. A single shooter - history of nonviolent crime for the most part - shot a cop in the vest when he came out on a citizen complaint. Tied up a good percentage of local law enforcement abilities for about 24 hours. If he had citizen support, he would have "safe houses" and people to shield him from discovery. You can not put enough LEOs out there to go against the flow. No matter how an individual LEO may see his mission - SWAT excepted - their function is as keeper of the peace. That JBT giving you a disturbing the peace cite for obnoxious noise on a Sunday morning is saving you from your neighbor's axehandle justice.

All that said, I believe historically total anarchy or gov't revolution hits when about 5-10% of the population actually feels oppressed by law enforcement.
And the first question is "who's the S.O.B. who will take over"?

edited to add...If you want the answer, look at most homeowner's associations of larger townhouse complexes or guarded neighborhoods. Talk about unconstitutional laws! Your private house is the wrong color and that wall in front needs to be stuccoed, not slumpstone.
 
I need to add some thoughts.

I think we have the best country on the planet! I just see the writing on the wall. I think we are on (or past?) our peak as a country. I think it will be all down hill from here. All empires will fall or at least be diminished.

I think our government was, in it's inception, as perfect as humanly possible. Now it has become perverted.

Humans are a corrupt species. All good things must come to an end.

I just wonder what kind of America my children will live in!?!
 
labgrade,

I think you are starting out with unrealistically high expectations. In the first place, most people haven't a clue on whether a law is Constitutuonal or not, whether or not a law is in itself legal. Even if they did, most of them really wouldn't give a rat's-rear as long as it did not directly impinge on their personal comfort level.

Given the above, I think the real impetus for violent civil confrontation will be the increasingly polarized factionalization of the police from the general population. We've already seen a major increase in the "us versus them" mentality evidenced by both sides. In an American anthropological sense, just as many Indian tribe's name for themselves translated as "The People" and their name for anyone else translated as "The Enemy", we are increasingly seeing that in the relations between the police and the populace. No longer are the police seen to be public servants to aid us in time of trouble and the police view all non-police as potential threats. Granted, this is a generalization with the commensurate exceptions, but it accurately depicts the trend.

At some point in the relatively near future, there will be an incident and response, or a SCOTUS ruling, that will tip the balance to anarchy. It isn't a question of 'if' but 'when'.
 
"What will the police do when the majority (enough) decide we've had it with you enforcing unconstitutional laws?"

If this is about the same as saying "What will happen when the majority decide we don't like the laws you're enforcing?" then the answer might be simple, and one we've seen already.

In the final years of Prohibition, juries pretty much stopped convicting defendants of alcohol violations. They exercised jury nullification. The country was fed up with Prohibition. FDR was elected in part because of his promise to support repeal.

I have the hope that something similar may happen with the present excesses. Don't kid yourself that there were EVER any "good old days." Police beat confessions out of suspects more often 50 years ago than today. Things change, and there is always someone trying to deny you your rights. There always was and there always will be. Spit on your hands and fight them.

People endure abuses so long as those abuses are endurable. When they get too bad, you get a property tax revolt or a 1994 incumbent slaughter. I see no reason the same thing can't happen again and again.

JR
 
"No longer are the police seen to be public servants to aid us in time of trouble and the police view all non-police as potential threats."

It is more important to have a say about how police forces see themselves. My world is fairly supportive of their efforts to help us get along together. Lack of professional conduct is not tolerated. The sheriff's department covers generally less supportive areas and attract/create a different mindset. Both groups wear ballistic underwear for a reason.
 
CarKnocker wrote:

At some point in the relatively near future, there will be an incident and response, or a SCOTUS ruling, that will tip the balance to anarchy. It isn't a question of 'if' but 'when'.

Prior to retirerment, I spent a fair amount of time in and around oil refineries and chemical process plants, both being inherently dangerous places.

Re refineries, it was never a care of "is" the thing going to blow up, because they, sooner or later, always do. The question was, both then and now, "when" will the place go up?
 
SFAIK, the vast majority of all people interact with the police mostly with regard to traffic violations. Next, I guess, would be for thefts and burglaries.

As near as I can tell, the average policeman doesn't really need to give much attention to the constitutionality of the laws he enforces. Constitutionality just isn't a part of traffic, burglaries or holdups. Or, for that matter, most actions involving the world of drugs. If constitutionality is an issue, it's mostly with the federal agencies' activities.

We who are involved with RKBA are more sensitized to gun issues and constitutionality, but the average LEO on a daily basis just doesn't worry about this. Again, as near as I can tell, most of those busted for wrongful possession of a firearm are already "problem children", and the cop's concern is his and the public's safety.

IOW, there's a long, long way to go before the local police are regarded by most of the public as a source of fear...

FWIW, Art
 
A study came out 5 or 7 years ago that looked at what the local police actually arrest people for. It turns out that the crimes are the same ones they arrested folks for 50 years ago. Those are the "common law crimes" - such things as burglary, robbery, rape, arson, murder, serious assault, etc.

Virtually all of the laws on the books aren't known about, complied with, or ever enforced.

The is especially true of the "crimes du jour" that Legislatures pass in response to a momentary press campaign. For example, except for ATF agents (who have no other work), gun possession/transfer laws are enforced only when the individual otherwise comes to the attention of the police thru commission of a real crime and those charges are the first things bargained away because prosecutors aren't concerned about them either.

The police simply will not devote sustained effort to these crimes because they don't result in victims (the police are a protection agency, you know). To illustrate this point: Minneapolis has set up "gun task forces" with great publicity at least 3 times in the past 20 years in response to media whining. They last about 9 months and then the mampower is redeployed to fighting traditional "real" crimes like the murder, robbery, rape, drug sales, etc. There is no serious effort to actually enforce these laws and the various police chiefs satisfy their conscionces by calling for "more tools (laws)" that they won't use.
 
Labgrade, the police *would* be in trouble if any significant proportion of the population turned against them or even ceased to support them.

However, that doesn't seem to be happening outside of some inner city ghetto-type areas.

People like you, me, Jimpeel, and Cosmoline, and a few others are just isolated, relatively insignificant "voices crying in the wilderness."

They will just go on picking us off one-by-one until we all get angry together, and *really* stick together (as opposed to throwing the weakest and most vulnerable among us to the wolves, as usually happens).

Yeah, if 15 million deer hunters all suddenly rose up as one man against the unconstitutional law enforcement establishment, it wouldn't be much of a contest. But I don't see anything like that happening before it's too late. Everbody's just going to go on being glad *they* were not the ones who just got their RKBA retroactively stripped away by some new ex post facto law, *they* were not the ones who just got attacked by ski-masked grenade throwers in their home in the middle of the night, or shot dead on the side of the road for not quite understanding whether they were were supposed to "GET OUT OF THE CAR!" or "DON"T MOVE!"

Maimaktes
 
I kind of think everything will go on, business as usual, until the federal government realizes that to keep from going bankrupt it will have to raise the taxes of all "rich" people (people making more than $20,000 per year) to 50%. Of course, this doesn't mean anyone will get relief from all the other taxes levied by the states, counties, and municipalities.

The stress of different factions all competing for dwindling welfare resources will create some interesting decisions for the police to make. Then the fun will begin.

Pilgrim
 
"In the 1960s or 1970s how many people thought the USSR would collapse in 1990?"

The ones with enough sense to look at the facts about Russia's severe ongoing economic inefficiencies and not just cower in the corner reading the dire predictions of the doomsayers.

It had to happen given their completely ineffective system and could/should have happened a little earlier. They just needed a real good shove.

John

P.S. - Why do so many people on this site rag on the cops? Could they do a better job? Would they?
 
All mentioned so far makes sense, but there's one question that hasn't been asked yet...

Will all the LEO's blindly follow the government's command?

Some will, but I bet most will not--as long as attention isn't brought to their "lack of enforcement". Even if it's noticed, some of those will choose to stand for their principals.

Not all LEO's are JBT's. There are still a lot of good ones left...:cool:
 
The police will lose their base of public support when the police cease to believe that they too are the public. Once they start thinking in terms of "police and civilians" and forget they too are "civilians", the conflict has begun, however unintentionally.

One of the generic characteristics of a police state is the police's transformation from "protect and serve" to "enforce the govt's laws against the citizenry." And I'm not talking about your basic common-law life/liberty/property crimes such as laws against murder, rape, arson, etc., I'm talking about malum prohibidum crimes (vehicle inspection, drugs, etc.).

When the citizens perceive the police as a whole to be JBTs, they will start their own guerilla war against the police, either thru civil disobedience, monkeywrenching (see "The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress"), or actual vigilante warfare. The people tend to have no idea how much power they have at their hands just by not obeying their erstwhile "masters."

And remember, perception is reality to most folks. People don't need to be right; they just need to believe.

You wanna know what I think will be a likely tipping point? When the police start escorting Child Protective Services to homes to snatch kids because the parents(a) homeschool, (b) spank, (c) have guns in the house, (d) just don't trust the govt. Used to be a day when people would say "well, if the govt took their kids away, there must have been a good reason." No longer. Most people have heard enough bad stories to not trust CPS anymore (think the several hundred children that Florida CPS lost, the stories of foster parents with previous felony convictions, etc.).
 
Ever read Animal Farm?

We'll just "unofficially change the Constitution via the court system until it means what WE Say it means" and then, there'll be no problem because if you disagree we'll just put the boots to you until you see the error of your ways ... figuratively speaking of course.

Oh wait, thats already occurred.

Never Mind.

Remember, "Four legs good, Two legs bad", "All Animals are equal, but some are more equal" and that eventually the Pigs will rule the roost, er farm... because Pigs are, as you know, the smartest of all the barnyard animals and are not ones with which to trifle.
Pigs of course being party members elected to office who have certain agencies with guns at hand to enforce the laws they see fit to give us or rule on for us.

Or so Orwell wrote. I think he knew what could happen, would happen if we peacefully sat by and awaited a savior to GIVE US BACK that which we allowed others to steal as they (the Pigs) explained to us how good we now have it because of their sacrifices while serving us.

For the children, of course.

But then again, if one doesn't like the system, one should run for office and do something about it... or hope and pray that we, the little people, still have the right to grumble aloud about the bits and pieces that we think need fixing without too many "boots" being put to us.
Or, one could move to a place where there is effectively, little in the way of Law Enforcement if one has the gumption to eke out an existance in the boondocks.
But for the majority of the American populace, we'll just take our SOMA, turn on American Idol or Survivor XXLCVII, sit back in our Lazy-Boy and think, "Self, We've never had it so good, have we?"
And mean it.
 
As usual, what happens to our country is up to us. The founding fathers gave us a way to control our own destinies and the destiny of our nation. It is the duty and responsibility of us as citizens to vote in every election. Our political whores only care about staying in office. If they know they have nothing to fear from the people, then they are free to do as they wish. We ,the citizens of America, are responsible for the state of our country. Whatever happens is up to us.
 
Ky Larry, bless you! but you've touched upon a huge part of the whole problem - but that system doesn't work any more. It merely perpetuates itself.
 
Ky Larry, bless you! but you've touched upon a huge part of the whole problem - but that system doesn't work any more. It merely perpetuates itself.

Allude to Baba Louie's latest.

The Democrats/repubs have both sold us out & in a two-party system, we are left with whomever wishes it most, & it is, in power, to do what they most wish to happen.

The Big Problem is = the cops are taking orders - & following them - to the detriment of whom they have sworn to protect & serve.

Consider it, please.

Ever increasing laws - more draconian, more severe penalties to ensure we tow the line, less lee-way - every day, more laws are passed that you willingly enforce.

The day comes where enough will say "enough!," & you will become the targets of our agnst - not those who make the laws (the true criminals), but you, who enforce them.

Consider it, please.

You will end up pitting this country's finest against this country's finest - by your own actions.
 
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