When to put your finger on the trigger

[rwilson37643]

I recently attended a class taught by a local police trainer who is also an LFI, Gunsite, and Thunder Ranch graduate. the class was great but the when teaching the draw the timing of trigger finger placement was different than I am accustomed to. I am former U.S.M.C. and an NRA instructor for basic handgun, shotgun, Rifle, and Personal Protection inside and outside the home. I have always taught leaving the trigger finger outside the trigger guard until the arms are fully extended and the sights are on the target. During this class we were taught to place the finger on the trigger as soon as the muzzle is oriented toward the target in the retention position. The rational seemed to be that if the situation demanded you could fire from that point on. The rational seems to make sense, but I'm not sure I agree with having your finger on the trigger unless the decision to fire is already made and about to happen. What do you all think?

 

[conw]

If "the" retention position discussed is the #2 position I disagree.

Initiate Drawstroke/#1: finger always off the trigger
#2/retention: put your finger in IF you are shooting from retention. DO NOT put finger on trigger if you are moving to the #3.
#3 (hands mate on gun): you can put your finger on the trigger if you have a good index on the target (can see front sight on target in lower foveal cone, or are close enough that you can shoot without seeing sights) AND are ready to shoot
#4 (appropriate extension up to full extension): put finger on trigger IF you are ready to shoot AND have a sight picture/"see what you need to see"

There are discrete decision points at each based on proximity of target and justification/need to shoot threat. It's a horrible idea to put the finger on at #2 if you are not shooting from retention since #3 involves putting the off-hand on the gun. That is how you blow a finger off.

 

[rwilson37643]

That was my thinking. this is the first non-NRA training I've had for several years, I was curious to see if others are teaching this way

 

[45bthompson]

Sounds like that instructor has a stiff upper lip.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Sounds like he was trying to simplify the OODA loop for teaching...to get the motion down.

Retention is the earliest you would put your finger on the trigger if you intend to shoot from that position. As in, you've made the decision to shoot as soon as you've cleared the holster...because your target is closing quickly on you.

Waiting until "the arms are fully extended and the sights are on the target." is waiting too late...and is an invitation to a jerked shot. The exception is, as in LE work, when your intent is to hold someone at gunpoint.

If you intend to shoot after drawing your gun, the finger should enter the trigger guard as soon as the hands meet. This allows you to prep the trigger so that you can break the shot as your arms reach extension...this is why a SA first shot isn't faster or more accurate than a DA first shot.

The rational seems to make sense, but I'm not sure I agree with having your finger on the trigger unless the decision to fire is already made and about to happen.

In a defensive situation, the decision to fire should have been made before you start your draw...you can always change you mind while you are in the process if the circumstances change

 

[brickeyee]

As a non-police officer, when I draw I am going to shoot.

If the target stops themselves in the few seconds it takes to draw, I would not shoot.

They better be fast though, since I am not slow.

If you draw the gun you are at least brandishing, and possibly assaulting.

The battery comes when the bullet strikes.

Unlike the police I am not allowed to draw to compell compliance or to threaten.

I draw when I am in fear of death or grave injury, and unless that danger suddenly evaporates I will fire.

I will not say 'Stop,' 'put your hands up,' or anything of the type.
The threat is all the justification I need to shoot, or the gun would never have been drawn.

 

[conw]

It's best to teach target discrimination, proper trigger discipline, and movement skills with pistol (with finger off trigger) for safety reasons just in case. As well as good after-action situational awareness e.g. the popular and useful head-swivel before reholstering. All of this demands good trigger discipline and gun handling skills that are not easily taught if you truly ingrain in someone that the gun is going to be INSTANTLY shot EVERY time it comes out in defensive scenarios, and don't properly ingrain other good habits simultaneously.

I'm not arguing that it shouldn't, theoretically, be shot ASAP in the way you just described. I'm saying that putting a tentitive "if-then, stop" statement where a drawstroke can be initiated quickly but without "trigger checking" the gun is a good idea. NDs can result if students are not trained in such a way that "OFF" is the default and "ON" is a conscious decision, even under stress.

 

[Loosedhorse]

I personally do not put my finger on the trigger until I intend to fire. An instructor pointed out one possible problem: you challenge a guy with a knife--DROP THE WEAPON!--but he sees you don't even have your finger on the trigger. That might encourage him to think you're a wimp, and won't shoot.

My instructor might be right. But we each have to pick what we'd rather live with: I'd rather give a guy with a knife the wrong impression than mistakenly shoot someone who IS dropping his knife.

For those familiar with the HK P7, it is possible to fire that pistol by holding the trigger down (it won't fire), and after that activating the squeeze-cocker to fire it. Some refer to it as shooting the P7 "double action." I choose not do do that.

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

I would say, put it on when you're actually going to shoot. Police and military often point their weapons at people, without having the actual occasion to fire. It is wise to keep the trigger finger indexed until you have decided you are probably about to shoot. There may also be occasion where a civilian might do the same, perhaps during a break in or some other altercation where you have drawn and are ready to fire, but not yet ready to kill*. If you are drawing at a threat and have already decided to shoot, than put your finger on the trigger as soon as the weapon is pointed at the target and fire. If they're right on you, you don't need to be fully extended to fire.


*I don't buy the "you can't draw unless you are actually going to shoot" idea. If there is a man in mouse house with both hand holding my TV or X-Box, am I going to draw and tell him to freeze? Yes. Am I going to kill him while he's just holding my stuff? No. Your opinion may differ, but I do see possible situation where drawing would be warranted, but shooting might not.

 

[Steve in PA]

Sorry, but no police officer is EVER taught to put his finger on the trigger unless he has made the decision to shoot.

Ever see the video of the female deputy pointing her weapon at a suspect on the ground, while another male deputy is handcuffing the suspect? Guess what, something causes her to complete the trigger press and a round discharges!! Luckily, no one was hurt.

As for thinking, oh well I can stop the trigger press............WRONG!!!!! Do search on Force Science News and check out all the research they have done on trigger response times, etc.

I amm both a firearms instructor and LEO. Never put your finger on the trigger unless you are actually shooting, period.

 

[Psa1m144]

I haven't been taught this method but I can see where the instructor is coming from. I know that I will not draw my gun unless I am in a life threatening situation which means that I have decided to shoot before my gun leaves the holster. Placing your finger on the trigger during the #2 position is not a bad idea if you are like me and only draw your gun when you intend to use it.

As for the examples where you want to get someone to drop a knife... try the Tueller Drill sometime and then tell me that you are willing to wait and see if they drop it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill

 

[Fred Fuller]

I would go so far as to say 'never put your finger on the trigger until the decision to fire has been made, and the muzzle is clear of obstacles (including your own body) and on target.' Sights on target and pistol at full extension might not be luxuries you will have time for in a genuine confrontation, and learning to shoot from retention is IMHO an important aspect of training. If you haven't been taught a four count drawstroke and shooting from retention, your training might need remediation IMHO.

 

[Al Thompson]

Lots of good points. My take is that prepping the trigger between counts 3 and 4 works very well. But. You still have to have the situational awareness dialed in to where if the miscreant "drops the knife, gun, bat, etc.," you can keep from breaking the shot.

 

[Averageman]

.Lots of good points.
I would like to say that you can look at this and look harder and even put it under a microscope and look at each exact detail. Still you wont be able to come up with a hard and fast "RULE" to go by.
People either have control of their weapon or they are controlled by their weapon.
My finger goes on to the trigger somewhere in the middle of my draw stroke, I extend my arms fully and fire and keep my finger on the trigger and control the trigger for follow up shots; in other words I feel the release and control it's reset.
I can with control fire several controlled shots very quickly this way. It is a learned skill.
This allows me to fire with the weapon in the middle of my chest and not in full extension by point shooting.
RULE III: KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET
This may work well in your urban indoor shooting range controlled by a range master, but it will get you killed in combat.
You either control the weapon or the weapon controls you.

 

[Fred Fuller]

On the street or elsewhere, footing might be uncertain. Tripping and falling are real possibilities, especially if under pressure - or attack. I proved that to a few folks not long ago by falling on my derriere in a parking lot doing some defensive drills.

Problem is, in the process of falling, your reflexes are apt to cause your hands to clench. If your finger is on a trigger when this happens, guess what might happen next?

Reflex is something we don't have control over. We can say, "Oh, I wouldn't do that" when it comes to shooting someone we didn't intend to shoot. But anyone who keeps a finger on the trigger when they do not intend to immediately fire a shot is asking for trouble.

Different instructors train different methods. For example, the PoliceOne article below that I pulled a quote from mentions the "C position" for the trigger finger. I haven't heard of that being taught for years now. Might be someone out there is still doing it, I don't know, I don't get around that much. But different people are or were teaching all kinds of things. Not to drop names, but merely as an illustration, see http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/01/robert-farago/gabe-suarez-is-insane/ .

I will simply put it this way. NO instructor I have ever trained with has ever told me to keep a finger on the trigger when I didn't intend to fire Very Soon Now. Ever. Any of them. In fact, some of them have been very adamant in insisting that fingers NOT loiter on triggers, or inside trigger guards even.

Louis Awerbuck threatened to boot my dearly beloved hardheaded wife out of a carbine class in 2007 if she didn't keep her finger out of the trigger guard of the too-heavy target style AR she insisted on using the first day of class - he could tell she was straining to keep the gun up and using that finger to help support it, but it was still Against The Rules. She made it through the day without getting tossed, and next day she was back with the pencil-barreled lightweight carbine I had tried to get her to use to begin with, and she successfully completed the class with it.

What we talk about here is not target shooting or informal practice on the flat range. What we encourage is training, with a good instructor, who can and will teach those things that are important to know about fighting with a gun. And we encourage that because those differences are critical to know, and the time to learn them IS NOT when trouble comes calling. This is not some chestbeating ooohh-lookit-us-we're-gunfighters schtick. There ARE differences, and IMPORTANT differences, between simple target shooting, informal flat-range practice, and fighting for your life with a gun in your hand.

Trigger discipline is among the most important of those differences.

============================================
http://www.policeone.com/police-pro...ntal-discharge-during-close-quarters-contact/
May 04, 2007
Preventing accidental discharge during close quarters contact

While most training programs will tell you to keep your finger off the trigger until you’re ready to fire, under stress fingers often subconsciously wrap around the trigger anyway. At that point, if you are startled, bumped, or jostled your trigger finger can then inadvertently discharge the weapon.
==========================

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2010/08/robert-farago/the-secret-life-of-trigger-discipline/
The Secret Life of Trigger Discipline
=======================

 

[Nushif]

I guess my answer from all of the three training classes I've attended (I know, right?) is a pretty fuzzy one.

When actually transitioning from position one to two, I don't have my finger on the trigger. I do know that.
But here is where it gets slippery. When I think there may be a reason for me to shoot from position two, like our instructor had us do a few times, my finger is on the trigger. It goes there as measured by my "Bad JuJu" meter.
On the other hand at a nice and static, or even dynamic range, when I am pretty darned sure I won't fire until I am at full extension my finger isn't on the trigger until well, when I'm at full extension.

Like much in life I don't think there is a "true" answer to what you're asking ... if I'm drawing in a dark alley because a shape is coming at me fast, my finger is on the trigger at retention position two. And someone is gonna have a hard time convincing me otherwise.
But in any kind of measured pace, where there is the chance to use the sights, or I am actively prepping, well ... why would my finger be on the trigger?

You follow?

[edit]
I guess my take on this is this:
Don't put your finger on the trigger until you're ready to shoot.
Rather than the notion of the sights physically having to be on the target until I am allowed to move my finger from the frame?

 

[Jeff F]

Depends on the platform I'm using. Double action revolver (what I carry most) or a double action auto, and my finger is on the trigger as soon as I clear leather. Mini 14, Garand or M1A type action/safety and my finger is inside the trigger guard whenever I'm ready to shoot as thats where your trigger finger needs to be to flick the safety to fire. Most anything else and my finger stays away from the trigger until I have made the decision to shoot.

 

[MedWheeler]

My finger goes on the trigger when the target is identified and as it's being acquired. Once there, it will remain there until the threat has been neutralized or is otherwise no longer existent. If I have cleared leather but the target has not yet been identified, or its existence is not even confirmed, then my finger is outside the trigger guard.

 

[twofifty]

The only context that applies to my circumstances is IPSC competition, with a DA/SA handgun. The rules mandate the finger outside the guard unless your HG is on target, otherwise you're DQd from the match.

Most of the time in IPSC when you draw you do so with the intent to shoot right NOW. During the draw stroke my finger enters the guard soon as the HG is raised high enough to be pointed at target with a fully acquired
2-hand grip. Trigger gets taken up while pushing out from step 3 to step 4. As 9mmEpiphany explained, this makes for a good and light DA 1st shot.

Leaving the trigger press until complete full extension means a lot of wavering while the HG is fully extended and you're squeezing through a 10# DA pull. It is faster and more accurate to start early and pull through the last couple pounds as you reach full extension. You're driving the gun forward with big arm and shoulder muscles, so things are steady. It takes confidence to finish the triggerpress at the moment of full extension, knowing that you're on target. That's where training comes into play.

As to whether the press can be interrupted if the situation changes, I've been stopped a couple times by an RO during the push-out step of my draw, while prepping the trigger. Each time I instantly released the trigger and indexed my finger to the frame. Of course, all there is downrange is berms, cardboard and steel - a mistake is without real consequences.