When Your Fellow Soldiers Are At Risk: How do you extract information?

[Gary H]

When a hardcore group of people are ambushing your soldiers and you have someone in custody who's information would allow you to shut down the opposition... what do you do to extract the information?

Supposedly, besides being rather offensive, physical torture tends to extract unreliable information.

Mental/Cultural stresses such as the use of sleep deprivation, constant noise, bright lights / control by women, pig pranks and such might be useful. It seems that when these things are brought to light, they become a rallying point for anyone opposed to our involvement in Iraq.. and some that support the war. How can we say publically that these things might be needed? ( Of course, nobody has made the case that these techniques are only used in such high profile situations. )

So, we have removed the above techniques. Do we offer high information content prisoners tea, money... how do we get the information.. or is it better to put our soldiers in harms way without the support of this sort of intelligence?

 

[Nightcrawler]

It's a tough question, figuring on how to interrogate people without violating the Geneva Conventions.

Sleep Deprivation is extremely effective and does NOT violate the Geneva Conventions. You can also use the soda pop treatment, though that might be construed as "torture" (even though it causes no actual injury).

I don't know if things like truth serums are against the Geneva Conventions, though.

You can also bribe the prisoners. With things like better food, allowances, promises of early release, etc.

*shrug* I'm sure there's a manual on it somewhere.

 

[Gary H]

Were the "Holy Warriors" a party to the Geneva convention? If not, are we bound by such a convention?

 

[Nightcrawler]

No, they're not, and technically unless a country is signatory to the Geneva Conventions we're not obligated to obey it ourselves.

However, as has recently been noted, it doesn't make our cause any easier when we violate it.

For those who don't know, the soda pop treatment, I believe, involves shaking up soda and pouring it up somebody's nose, so it gets up in their sinues. Apparently it hurts like hell, but doesn't actually hurt you. I"ve heard that Mexican police like this trick, but it's just word-of-mouth type stuff.

 

[Gary H]

I believe that keeping such questioning quiet may put our own captured soldiers at less risk of ill treatment. Of course not "mistreating" prisoners does a better job of holding the high ground. Now, that is the theory. Is there any evidence that the "Holy Warriors" in "Holy City of X" of this conflict will show compassion towards any of our captured soldiers?

(My use of "holy" is more in contempt for the reporting. I'm getting sick of the word "holy" used in reference to this conflict.)

 

[Stand_Watie]

The 'soda pop' treatment was detailed by Joseph Wambaugh in the book 'Lines and Shadows' (I think, it might have been one of the others). Wambaugh is supposed to be one of the more credible true crime writers, and is a former LAPD officer.

 

[RED-DOG 40]

Strap'em down flat, backside down with five gal. bucket mounted three feet above head, small hole in bottom of bucket, position hole to be in line with forehead-center, fill bucket with water, adjust drip @ 60 dpm, refill as needed...

......... ....

 

[seeker_two]

Physical torture: Unrelable at best. Only good for punishment & applying mental/emotional pressure to others (i.e. torturing a terrorist while the others watch before questioning them).

Mental/emotional pressure: (sleep deprivation, blasting music, etc.) Great to prepare a subject for more intense interrogation. May be the best choice for some subjects (esp. if said subject has medical problems preventing the use of drugs). 50/50 success rate.

Drugs: Most reliable way to go. Sodium pentathol is the best known, but better drugs are available. Even drugs like alcohol, marijuana, & heroin can loosen a tongue. Best choice unless your subject has a medical reaction to the drug.

If you don't believe me, try getting your friends/significant other drunk sometime. You'll be suprised at what you find out...

 

[TamThompson]

On the original post, 'control by women' was listed as torture.

Well, then, most of my married male friends are in a world of hurt!!! And I'm a torturess, BWAH-HAH-HAH!!!

 

[ninenot]

On/off the topic: my 17-yo daughter asked about the 'torture' thing and I explained that it was a bit complicated, as the prisoners were not soldiers but rather 'illegal combatants/.terrorists.' So she says "if they are terrorists, why do we worry about how they are treated?"

There's hope. This is something she discussed with her friends in school and evidently there's a consensus at the school that vermin can be, ah, pushed about a bit.

 

[Waitone]

Regardless of how you extract battlefield information, our current flap over the prisons will do to the US in the war on islamofascist terrormongers what the Church committee did to intelligence. 30 years ago in reaction to some very bad actions on the part of the CIA, FBI, etc. congress put in place restrictions that really didn't hurt for 30 years.

We are in the process of doing the same thing right now to our ability to collect timely intelligence.

 

[telomerase]

Obviously, crucifixions!

Everyone knows that if you just crucify enough of these Mideastern Semitic scum, they'll eventually sacrifice to the Emperor and send in their taxes. Only sensible way to deal with them.

 

[Nightcrawler]

Torture can actually be fairly ineffective, I'm given to understand. Simply because if you hurt somebody bad enough, yes, they'll crack eventually. They'll say whatever you want them to say. It may or may not be what you're trying to find out, though.

This is why it's often used to get "confessions" out of people. Torture someone long enough and he'll say whatever you want.

Getting detailed, useful information out of someone can be a good deal more complicated than that, though, and is more involved than anything as crude and brutal as ripping out finger nails and such acts of barbarity.

Plus, torture of prisoners serves only as a rallying cry for your enemies. It's inefficient, brutal, and of marginal utility.

One could go into the morality of such things, too, but...well, that's a whole other ball of wax. Technically speaking, though, there are more effective (and humane) ways of information extraction than torture.

 

[romulus]

...technically unless a country is signatory to the Geneva Conventions we're not obligated to obey it ourselves.

That is not true:

PART I
GENERAL PROVISIONS

Article 1
The High Contracting Parties undertake to respect and to ensure respect for the present Convention in all circumstances.

Article 2
In addition to the provisions which shall be implemented in peace time, the present Convention shall apply to all cases of declared war or of any other armed conflict which may arise between two or more of the High Contracting Parties, even if the state of war is not recognized by one of them.

The Convention shall also apply to all cases of partial or total occupation of the territory of a High Contracting Party, even if the said occupation meets with no armed resistance.

Although one of the Powers in conflict may not be a party to the present Convention, the Powers who are parties thereto shall remain bound by it in their mutual relations. They shall furthermore be bound by the Convention in relation to the said Power, if the latter accepts and applies the provisions thereof.

 

[Art Eatman]

Lemme stipulate battlefield or very similar conditions, okay? Separate from those incarcerated in a prison. "Immediacy" is, to me, the controlling word.

If I'm in command, I wouldn't allow any of my men to violate any rules or regulations or Conventions. Nohow, no way.

Odds are, that prisoner is in for a long, hard day. But I'll take full responsibility for whatever I do.

Art

 

[Nightcrawler]

"in their mutual relations".

And:

"They shall furthermore be bound by the Convention in relation to the said Power, if the latter accepts and applies the provisions thereof."

I take this to mean that they're only bound to the treaty, when in combat with a power who is not, if the enemy power accepts and obeys the treaty too (regardless of whether they are signatories).

It's really neither here nor there, in any case.

 

[J. Garand]

These soliders willl be tried and the result of that trial if convicted will be punishment.
It just galls me to see people wondering if this was "OK". The president and SECDEF just got on TV and apoligized to the world for what appears to be illegal actions of these MP's. Of course what happened isnt "OK". Any fool can see that.
The Soliders are cloaked in innocence until proven guilty. Does any one have a problem with that? If so please move to the "I want a ticket to a dictatorship" line.
I am with the goverment on this one, they are appalled by what they see and see all thier hard work for naught. Rummy says there is much more to come out.
What a mess.

 

[ID_shooting]

OK, I obviously do not have the popular opinion, but my personal opinion is that what happens behind closed doors stays behind closed door. I give no sympathy to an enemy and will expect none. I am sorry if offends some of the light hearted but I would do what it takes to win, no matter the cost. But then, I wold have used nukes by now. My way aint pretty, but hen kinda hard for Osama to do his deeds when he is buried under several miles of glass.

 

[Oleg Volk]

And if you managed to turn a bunch of my friends to glass coincidentally with Osama, don't you think that I and their surviving relatives would be miffed enough to make Osama seem mild by comparison?

 

[longeyes]

Ice cream scoops and an endless loop of Barry Manilow concerts can break anyone.

It's only a matter of time before the military crosses the Rubicon.

 

[Lone_Gunman]

Does anyone think the information the prisoners had was worth the political damage the photos have done?

If I were a islamo-terrorist in Iraq, I certainly would not be inclined to give up and turn myself in, knowing that might happen to me.

Americans will die because of what the perverted guards in that prison did (assuming of course they are guilty).

 

[telomerase]

My way aint pretty, but hen kinda hard for Osama to do his deeds when he is buried under several miles of glass.

Kinda hard to hit Osama by dropping nukes in Iraq. "Tim Osman" is probably lying on a beach in the Bahamas.

 

[Gary H]

Drudge:

"Pentagon OK'd Some Harsh Interrogation Steps... MORE... Defense Department's classified list of techniques for use at Guantanamo Bay prison permits making a detainee disrobe entirely for questioning, reversing normal sleep patterns and exposing them to heat, cold and 'sensory assault'... Developing... "

First, should we have killed, or raped then that is torture.

Cultural discomfort.. such as nudity and subjugation to women in Iraq are not on the same level, but we are going down the road to removing all of our ability to obtain information that might save our soldier's lives. Politicians tend to 'throw the baby out with the bathwater'. The public wants to be protected, but they don't want to face what it takes to do the job. Now, to use such techniques without reason is horrible. We are about to neuter our forces. Nobody has the political will to put a limit on this revulsion grandstanding. (ie: allow for prisoner discomfort within Geneva convention)
.

 

[jnojr]

On/off the topic: my 17-yo daughter asked about the 'torture' thing and I explained that it was a bit complicated, as the prisoners were not soldiers but rather 'illegal combatants/.terrorists.' So she says "if they are terrorists, why do we worry about how they are treated?"

Because the other guys see us as the terrorists, and are more likely to mistreat our soldiers who are taken prisoner if we decide to just go to town on every prisoner we take.

"Information extraction" should only be done under controlled situations when we have good cause to believe that the person to be interrogated has information that may save lives. Simple prisoners should be kept in halway decent shape... fed, clothed, mediacl attention, a roof over their heads.

The way I see it, we're the "good guys", so we should act like it.

 

[Lone_Gunman]

"if they are terrorists, why do we worry about how they are treated?"

Because it fuels anger on the other side, and hardens their resolve to resist us and fight to the death.

I probably would not be more inclined to give up if I thought I was going to be tortured.