Where are all the cries about loss of civil rights today?

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rock jock

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I am confused. First, I have been hearing for years that there is no real terrorist threat, that Dubya has been using it as an excuse to rob of us our rights via the Patriot Act.

I've also heard the mantra that NO possible act of terrorism could justify the creeping totalitarianism is the US.

I haven't heard these cries today. In fact, the silence has been deafening. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that close to a dozen planes weren't sent crashing into the Atlantic Ocean, thousands of people were not murdered, and our country is not facing another 9/11 tragedy.

Oh, BTW, I wore my concealed handgun today and cleaned one of several of my "assault weapons", you know, the ones that I built last year with collapsible stocks and FH's. Its nice that I can do tha now. Just thought I would pass that on.
 
Nothing has changed here - the PA still sucks and creeping toalitarianism is still unacceptable. I'm carrying the same guns I did 20 years ago.
What's your point?

Biker
 
... Dubya has been using it as an excuse to rob of us our rights via the Patriot Act.
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I see it a little differently.

I think Dubya (and many other politicians) honestly think the PA will make us safer and have no intention of misusing it ... its going to be a future Hillary type that is going to turn the PA against us.


I still contend that had the PA existed at the time of the OKC bombing that Rush Limbaugh would have disappeared into a secret prison (Clinton made several attempts to pin the whole mess on him).



Oh well, the world is going to hell ... we're all doomed ... its either going to be our own government turning totalitarian or the Islamofascists are going to set off nukes and/or release some killer virus so we're pretty much f**ked.
 
You know what I like about you, RJ? I always know exactly where you stand. You're always totally up front about your authoritarian leanings and your distaste for civil rights.

The whole terror plot thing doesn't pass the smell test. The Brits are supposedly investigating this homegrown terrorist cell for over a year, but they can only start making arrests "a few days at most" before the plot was carried out? I don't think so.

Two possibilities:

- Much like the recent Miami and Canada incidents, the plot was never really anywhere near completion (possibility of a police agent provocateur? Could be.) The Brit gov't is lying in order to maintain/increase public support for their ever-expanding surveillance programs.

- The "year-long investigation" didn't really happen - the Brits lucked into the plot (most likely one of the principals flipped) and are running 'round in a panic trying to round up all the players while covering up their incompetence.

Malfescience or incompetence - the perpetual choice of government.

- Chris
 
Where are all the cries about loss of civil rights today?
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They're falling on deaf ears and most of us are getting strep throat from yelling.

This latest round of thwarted plane attacks will only tighten the zip tie around the family jewels of freedom as they implement more useless and stupid restrictions. Look for it to expand beyond flying.
 
You know what I like about you, RJ? I always know exactly where you stand. You're always totally up front about your authoritarian leanings and your distaste for civil rights.

The whole terror plot thing doesn't pass the smell test.
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Hmmm, distaste for civil rights. Coming from someone who would rather accept looney conspiracy theories than a reality that threatens his existence, I take that as a compliment.

Funny, I didn't see a single person address today's terror plot and the thousands of lives saved (except of course, for Chris, whose views are simply, well....comical).
 
Amazing posts.

One train of thought seems to be that there was no conspiracy to blow up ten or so intercontinental airplanes. It was all a contrived story to boost GW's ratings, or whatever else positive could be accorded the Republicans.

The other seems to be that passage of the Patriot Act is cause for dismissal of any success in the fight against terrorists.

Why do the two camps have to hold mutually exclusive views? Isn't it conceivable that the US government has been successful in stopping terrorist attacks (this one being the most prominent and potentially deadly) while at the same time screwing the Bill of Rights in the name of such efforts?

I believe that the UK government and other governments--including ours--did actually stop the bombing of international flights, and save the lives of 2,000 to 3,000 people. Why? Because to believe otherwise is to believe in conspiracy theories. And conspiracies such as this would require hundreds or even thousands of people to keep their mouths shut. Pretty impossible.

Instead of ripping on your favorite side, how about giving a pat on the back to the folks who do the intelligence work. Lord knows they need some appreciation after five years of being beat up by just about everyone with a keyboard and an opinion.
 
We have given in to fear, and the terrorists have won. Honest.

As a nation we've begged the government to take away our freedoms and engage in abominations so that we can feel better. Their acts have caused us to give up the most precious parts of our way of life. They won. We lost. Game over until the next round.
 
I havn't complained here, I'm not that type of person. But I am unnerved by this whole "no liquids" rule. MSNBC was saying that carry-ons have been prohibited in the UK on a semi-perminant, possibly perminant, basis. Seriously, banning an entire form of matter is huge.

I'm practically having paranoid almost schizophrenic images of x-ray walk-thrus, stripping you apart, cameras from all corners performing facial recognition, police carrying MP5s, no one carrying anything, no carry-ons, inspections of luggage, complete sterility.

And what frightens me, is that when I went to the UK this summer, it was really like that. We had carry-ons and water, but it was so, so intentionally intimidating. The cameras were mounted low on the ceilings in plain view, positioned so that you can't look away, the police were almost all carrying, Scotland Yard was completely barricaded and officers casually walked with submachineguns, prominately displaying their body armor on top of their clothes as if to say, "You are powerless."

And I worry that we will evolve to that. That we'll have camera's on every street light to ticket light runners, and speeding cameras every mile, causing accidents as drivers irradically slow down to avoid the fine, then speed up, slow down. For god's sake, we can't even wear masks in public. ***? How insecure can you be that you must know the identity of everyone around you?

However, I draw the line on conspiracy theories. Because no one(yes there are exceptions) want's to do evil. The terrorists are trying to do right, Bush is, everyone is. But we have to draw the line on security. And I have; I'd prefer not to video tape public areas. I don't care what happens. I'd prefer not to be spyed on if I'm not talking to foreigners. I don't care how many people could be caught. I want to own a gun. I don't care how many people commit crimes with them. And I don't care who tries to infringe on my rights, because I do what is necessary to protect it.

(ps, not crazy stuff, but i don't think it's unreasonable to deface cameras, or own a gun in DC)

(pps, I don't actually do anything like this)
 
We have given in to fear, and the terrorists have won. Honest.

As a nation we've begged the government to take away our freedoms and engage in abominations so that we can feel better. Their acts have caused us to give up the most precious parts of our way of life. They won. We lost. Game over until the next round.
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Big time

guys I talk too, who are all for the "war on terror" (most of which are gunowners)....RUN to big momma Govt for "protection" and "security".:banghead: wake up boys you cant have more Govt AND more freedom.

gee I cant wait for the new restictions to come down from on high.....because of this.....
 
I am confused. First, I have been hearing for years that there is no real terrorist threat, that Dubya has been using it as an excuse to rob of us our rights via the Patriot Act.
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Only from a few screwballs, some of them with big names, but screwballs nonetheless.

However, I don't feel any differently about the Federal cops than I did yesterday. And I still think, along with plenty of others who want to see Islamism wiped off the earth, same as Nazism, Communism, etc., that the PA contained a number of items that were a wish list for Federal alphabet-soup bureaucrats who'd been waiting for an excuse. They generally find the Bill of Rights to be inconvenient.

Your post is what's called a Straw Man, rock jock.
 
Their acts have caused us to give up the most precious parts of our way of life.
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Yeah, back in 1934 already...

Same things can be said of most of FDR's initiatives, tellner, and every Federal power grab in the past century.

It's true that our slimy presidents and congresscritters have done this, but they've done it over and over, and citizens have "asked" for it over and over.

If it's "game over", why do you bother posting?

And what freedoms have you personally lost? Can you list them?

I can list a lot, and many of them have nothing to do with USA-PATRIOT, or even any Republicans at all.
 
I've already heard that it's al been staged.
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Well of course! Only the stupid Brits popped the top a couple months early. This was supposed to go down at the end of October!

And you know the airlines were totally in on it. Think of the piles of money they'll be making, now that everyone has to pay for beverages and they can't bring their own onboard!

:p
 
Those who try to make us fear terrorists are authoritarians guilty of treason.
 
Some Federal intiatives increased freedom. Others decreased it. The formation of the NLRB and the Voting Rights Act were great strides forward. So were a lot of civil rights protections and curbs on government power such as those during the Carter years. Yes, I know. He is a Democrat. He still reined in the rogue agencies and shed enough light to make the roaches scatter. He is also an evangelical Christian if that makes you feel better about him.

I don't know how to make it any clearer. The gubbmint isn't evil just by being the gubbmint. Neither is it good. It can defend freedom or it can attack it, and it has done both. The important thing is that it reflects the will of the electorate. At times like these when the propaganda machine has been churning out fear and paranoia on an Orwellian scale it will tend towards tyranny. Hence the "Unitary Executive", torture and the shredding of every single right enumerated in the BoR. If our national mood were more mature and matter of fact it would tend more towards solving problems.

The gubbmint radically increased the freedom and liberty of my family. My wife's family was subject to Jim Crow. It was Federal action from the White House, Congress and the Courts which made them citizens. We are married because the evil gubbmint threw down the States' miscegination laws. Her uncle and cousins were Marines because Harry Truman integrated the Army. The South didn't like it, but to hell with their cotton, pride and "peculiar institution".

And no, it doesn't really matter whether it's a Republican or a Democrat in the White House. It's teh general aims and values they bring. Nixon, for all his political thuggery and power-grabbing, designed policies to deal with the important economic and social issues of the day. So did Johnson and Clinton with all their faults.
 
Those who try to make us fear terrorists are authoritarians guilty of treason.
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Oh, that's rich.

There is, of course, no such thing as terrorism.

And 9/11 never happened.

And the Israelis aren't really receiving rocket attacks.

Etc., etc.

Terrorists? I don't see no stinkin' terrorists.

Oh brother......

:rolleyes:
 
Where are all the cries about loss of civil rights today?
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None from me.
All I have to say is, GWB where is my safe prison cell!
I prefer safety to freedom.
Hurry up and build it and please give the libs the key.
:rolleyes:
 
"Oh, that's rich.

There is, of course, no such thing as terrorism.

And 9/11 never happened.

And the Israelis aren't really receiving rocket attacks.

Etc., etc.

Terrorists? I don't see no stinkin' terrorists.

Oh brother......"

Anyone who tells you to be afraid of something is trying to control you by telling you "trust us, give us more power, and you won't have to be afraid anymore." Authoritarians, all. Be wary of terrorism, but be not afraid.
 
Where are all the cries about loss of civil rights today?
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Where do you expect to hear it? On the evening news? Does the end always justify the means for you? Do you think its impossible not not give up civil rights while attempting to make a safer country.

Although I think you've heard it already I'll restate it myself. I think on the whole much of the US is very cowardly and willing to sacrifice any rights asked for the hopes of being safe from terrorism. If that cost is too high or not is up to you.
 
I must add that one of the most pernicious intellectual diseases, destructive to the Republic and the mind of Man is alive and well here. It's the dehumanization of anyone who isn't "just like me". Anyone who has a difference of opinion no matter how well founded is evil, stupid, crazy, a dupe, unmanly, or treasonous. Usually all at once. To accept one part of my (in the generic sense) beliefs is to accept all of them and be Good. To reject any is to be against everything Good and to be Evil.

Another part of this is over-identification with heroes and villains. Every issue is symbolized by Good Guys and Bad Guys. Personal attacks on the Bad Guys are considered the same as refuting their arguments and thereby those of anyone who agrees with them about anything. The Good Guys are by definition beyond reproach, so any disagreement with them tarnishes their reputation and reveals the depravity of the heretic. It's intellectually bankrupt, stupid and more suited for the kindergarten playground or a meeting of some primitive cult than argument among adults.

And of course any nuance or a tendency to develop opinions rather than buying them as a package from the political meme-vendors is a sign of weakness, bad character, treason and probably eternal damnation.

This is not a liberal vs. conservative thing. It's a feature of the human condition that has to be fought whenever it appears.

We have let ourselves be ruled by fear rather than hope and have settled for a political system that relies on Hoffer's True Believers and Altemeyer's RWA followers rather than people willing to compromise and unite to address the reality we find ourselves in. Because of this the answers are simplistic. Freedom is an expensive luxury or actually to be condemned. Democracy as Jefferson conceived it - rule of the majority with respect for the rights and opinions of the minority - has been replaced by tyranny for whatever faction gets 50% plus one of the vote.

We are terrified and let it rule our entire political process. Ergo, the terrorists won.
 
"The terrorists are trying to do right..."

WHAT???!!!! Right by whom or what???!!!

Right by holding over 300 US citizens hostage in Iran for over a year?

Right by killing US servicemen in the 1996 bombing of the Khobar towers?

Right by killing US servicemen at a nightclub in Berlin?

Right by bombing the USS Cole, killing US sailors?

Right by trying to blow up the World Trade Center in 1994? (An attempt that killed many US civilians).

Right by succeeding in blowing up the WTC in 2001, killing 3,000 Americans?

Right by killing 11 of the Israeli Olympic team in Munich in 1972, and trying to whack the others?

Right by blowing up Pan Am 103?

Right by hijacking the Achille Lauro cruiseship and throwing a wheelchair-bound passenger into the ocean?

Right by declaring that the state of Israel should not exist, and that all Jews should be driven into the sea?

I could go on and on and on, but the point is that there is no "right" when it comes to the Islamofacists. They are facists by just another name, and use the same murderous tactics that we saw in the middle of the last century.

To call their cause "right" in any terms is to give them legitimacy, and just give them more worldwide credentials.

They are beasts. They are savages. They're Attila the Hun with AK-47's. At least Attila had motives that were more transparent and understandable.

And, from where I'm sitting, I think the Israeli's have shown remarkable restraint over the last few years.

They agreed to hand over territories they'd won in past wars. They sat back and watched the Palestinians and the Lebanese elect governments that were anti-Israel.

It wasn't the Israeli's who started the rocket attacks. And it hasn't been the Israeli's who have initiated every fight with Islamofacist groups going back to 1947.

The Israeli's have been dealing with this for almost 60 years. They've been dealing with constant assaults that would have the majority of the American public screaming for a protective, totalitarian government.

They've also adapted and learned, as we're going to have to adapt and learn.

But, to me, trying to put the Islamofacists on some sort of moral equivalency scale with Israel or the US is absurd.

I'm really glad that the united intelligence forces stopped the planned plane-bombings before they got off the ground.

But there's a side of me--a sick side, I guess--that wishes that at least some of those plane-bombings happened.

Because that's what it seems to take to get the American public riled up and on a single side.
 
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