Where do gunsmiths come from?

[Mooseman]

What makes a person a gunsmith? How are they trained? Are there schools for it? I see smiths referred to all the time in the threads and realize I know next to nothing about them. I figure there's other folks here in the same boat. I appreciate answers to the questions I asked and to the ones I don't know enough to ask.

Note to Mods, I figured this would go in general because it's not about any specific smithing issues.

 

[PTK]

I am just about done being trained as a gunsmith, so I can answer a few questions for you.

What makes a person a gunsmith? The know-how to safely diagnose/repair problems, refinish, and modify firearms. However, without formal training, liability becomes MUCH more of an issue than it already is. Most of the idea of gunsmithing revolves around saying "no" when you can't do something safely. Many people can't wrap their mind around the idea that if something goes wrong with a gun I worked on, you might sue me for everything I have.

How are they trained? Most of us go to college (there are two in the USA, but only one is accredited) or take vocational classes in gunsmithing. I decided to first go to college for machining and then go to another college for gunsmithing. There are also (much less useful) "gunsmithing courses" on video, but in reality these are just armorer's courses. A gunsmith can be an armorer as well, but unless an armorer has been properly trained, he is not a gunsmith.

Are there schools for it? As previously stated, yes indeed there are schools for it. Being that you're in PA, you're actually quite close to one of the two colleges. I'll try to dig up the link...

 

[frogomatic]

What makes a person a gunsmith?

A desire to build or repair guns, at least for me it is. Though I like the building more so than the repairing. I've always loved to shoot and to hunt. I've also always had a fascination with metal, machines, and physics. So, becoming a gunsmith just brought all those interests together.

How are they trained? Are there schools for it?

I went to school to learn the trade. Colorado School of Trades to be specific. good school too, 98% hands on training.

I see smiths referred to all the time in the threads and realize I know next to nothing about them.

this kinda struck me funny, like we're a separate breed or somthing...lol. Not much to know really. Some smiths are very good at what they do, some smiths aren't. kind of like any profession. When your car breaks down, you take it to a mechanic, when your dog is sick, you take it to a vet, and when your gun doesn't work, you take it to a gunsmith. Nothing particularly special about us, we're the same as most everyone else.

 

[Macmac]

No matter how a gunsmith gets there he is a first class machinist first. Then he decideds to go into a special work, which is almost an art.

Sometimes he will only work on a very few kinds of guns at all, and become more specialized.

 

[PTK]

frogomatic

When did you graduate? Still in the CO area?

 

[MMCSRET]

A "GUNSMITH", after all the training and licensing and liability requirements are fulfilled will submit 2 completed pieces of his personal craft to the Gunsmiths Guild for their evaluation and appreciation. If the 2 pieces of work, meaning completed firearms of his personal workmanship, meet the guild standards then the 'smith is allowed to join the guild. I know a 'smith in Idaho that was having a tough time feeding his family until he submitted his work and it was featured in Rifle magazine and within 2 months he had booked over $200,000 work and was turning work away. He does not do repairs now, only custom work and is doing quite well. It works the same way for engravers, I know a lady in Utah that did it and is now the only engraver contracted to Freedom Arms.

 

[WC145]

Where do gunsmiths come from?

The good ones are gifts from God.

 

[Cannonball888]

Sally mailed me my diploma after only one weekend of home study!



J/K

 

[sm]

The daddy gunsmith and the momma gunsmith share a bottle of Hoppe's No.9 and in their intoxicated state....

 

[frogomatic]

~PTK

frogomatic

When did you graduate? Still in the CO area?

I graduated october of this year, and I moved back to Missouri the day after I graduated.

 

[heron]

I've seen correspondence courses on it, but those wouldn't get you too far, I don't think; probably just enough for you to not be dangerous.

I worked with a guy who was a 'smith for a while. I think he catered mostly to the trap & skeet crowd. He said that customer relations can be a problem . . . a guy brings his $12,000 shotgun in for something, and then wants to watch you work on it, but you can't allow him to see your bench, because quite a few of the tools used are HAMMERS. Very specialized hammers, of different shapes and sizes, but the customers would pop an eyeball out of their heads if they thought you were going to just be pounding on their prized goodies.
So, statesmanship is also a part of the required skill set . . .

 

[MMCSRET]

As with so many other professions: it would be a great job if it weren't for the %#@& customers.

 

[frogomatic]

probably just enough for you to not be dangerous.

I think it's the opposite, they give you just enough knowledge to make you REALLY dangerous.

 

[ZombieHunter]

well if baby oil comes from babies...

 

[Geno]

Most errantly believe that on the 7th day, God rested. Well, it's not quite that simple. See, I have it on good authority that God created leap year so he could have an extra day between the 6th day of creatin' and the 7th day for rest. Then, on the leap year day, God created gunsmiths.

 

[TEDDY]

gunsmiths

I believe there is a gunsmith school in NC.not being in the trade,I am not sure.but there are more than 2. You really need to be a capable machinist first.you fine tune by going to a school.where you learn how to do it.then there are specialists that do the fine work,some stockmaking some engraving.I never cared for wood work.I am more of the fix the problem guy.

 

[BBQLS1]

If you gunsmiths don't mind my asking, what's the average pay for one out of school?

 

[Onmilo]

I became a small arms repairman in the Army.
After service I became a schooled machinist and welder.
After that I learned to repair guns from a master gunsmith.

I am what is callled an 'unpapered gunsmith', I hold no school accredidation but am capable of buiding a fiream from scratch, lock, stock, and barrel given the right tools and can repair and make parts for any type of firearm..

I earn the majority of my income from working as a machinist and part time farmer but continue to do gun repair part time.

Unless you become hooked up with a manufacturer or a very large gun repair company the odds of making a substantial living from gun repair are not very attractive.
Even master gunsmiths who build the custom firearms featured in many publications usually have a side line job.

 

[PTK]

If you gunsmiths don't mind my asking, what's the average pay for one out of school?

Depends on the area of specialization. As little as $20/hr for a "Gander Mountain" gunsmith, though.

 

[SigfanUSAF]

I started apprenticing with my father when I was 11 or 12, my first job being the detail cleaning of a 91/30 Mosin. Since then, excluding a break in the Air Force, I've worked part time with him until January of 2007. Since then, I've been doing repairs and restorations side by side with my ol' man full time, and loving every minute of it. I couldn't ask for a better job


ETA: It's taken a while for these S&Ws to grow on me though, now I currently own 4!

 

[basicblur]

I believe there is a gunsmith school in NC.

Got a relative who went through the course at Rockingham Community College.

You really need to be a capable machinist first.

I dunno 'bout that? Said relative had some machinist experience before attending RCC, as he served as an apprentice and was an industrial electrician for over 30 years. As an apprentice, he had to work in all crafts while training, but the machine shop portion was only 200 hours. I'm sure he got "capable" at college?

'Course, his shop is a little different than most I've been to. Got the usual assortment of hand tools etc, but I've not seen too many (small) gunsmiths hook up their laptop to their milling machine to do their CAD/CAM work.

Guess he's putting all he learned while doing electrical/electronic troubleshooting all those years into his gunsmithing?

 

[SSN Vet]

No matter how a gunsmith gets there he is a first class machinist first.

I agree with this statement.

We live in a society where the skilled trades have been denegraded by the liberal arts college crowd. And now we don't even know what these guys are anymore.

I'd say that when these guys come out of community or vocational training and THEN put in 3 to 5 years of working under the supervision of a master who puts serious time into training them, THEN they can call themselves a machinist.

A 'real deal' bonified machinist can build just about anything, given the time and materials.

A gunsmith (in my mind) is a machinist who specializes in firearms.

 

[mljdeckard]

My dad told me the stork brings them.

See, here's the thing. Onmilo has the edge over many 'papered' gunsmiths. One of my best friends went through the corrospondence courses and got certified. (I wanted to do it with him, but it didn't wind up happening that way.) He got aligned with a small-town pawn shop, and they started bringing in work for him. The first problem was, when he would come home from his day job, we was so tired he never felt like tearing into a stranger's gun. It started stacking up. The other problem was, he was learning a lot of the finer points the hard way. He was damaging parts, having to replace them out of pocket, and not making any money anyway. After replacing the action on a rare Weatherby rifle, he decided to become a chopper pilot, in which he is very successful.

It would be nice to know enough to adjust my own triggers, re-barrel old actions, and install my own night sights without paying someone else to do it. But to REALLY be the guy who knows all guns inside and out, sometimes better than the manufacturer, and can do things like custom engraving because they are a true artist, that takes a lifetime of learning and mentoring. (My stick figures suck.)

The way I see it, being a gunsmith works one of a few ways. You can get basic certification, and replace broken parts and clean strangers' guns. You may make a little money, but probably not. You can get a contract with a police department and have somewhat regular work doing annual inspection and service on all their weapons. That might actually be safe and secure. Or you can go all out as an artisan with a nationwide reputation, as in, "Mail me your gun with a $1000 deposit. Minimum wait one year." Then you're probably making enough money to be comfortable.

 

[frogomatic]

I'd say that when these guys come out of community or vocational training and THEN put in 3 to 5 years of working under the supervision of a master who puts serious time into training them, THEN they can call themselves a machinist

It doesn't take a master to teach someone. What it takes is someone who really wants to learn. The very best machinist I know(and it sure as hell ain't me) is 100% self taught. The student is the important part, and being a student does not require a teacher. What a teacher will do, is help the student to learn at a faster pace, however, if the student is not inclined to learn, there is no teacher in the world that can help him/her. Experience is the real way to learn, and that can be obtained in more than one way. I find the attitude you displayed to be ignorant at best, and elitest at worst. Fortuntely, it's not your place to decide. I can call myself the king of all unduli and wear a shiny hat if I so desire. I have nothing against learning from a teacher(that's what I did), my issue is with the attitude that only a 'master' can teach a person something, and anyone who doesn't do so isn't fit to call themselves a machinist(or whatever else). Someone had to do it the first time, and they sure didn't have a 'master' to learn from.

 

[heron]

probably just enough for you to not be dangerous.

I think it's the opposite, they give you just enough knowledge to make you REALLY dangerous.

I don't agree, Frogomatic. I know, correspondence courses don't go very far; I've done a couple. But they do teach you the basics. I imagine that, if you completed a good one, you'd be able to troubleshoot problems and replace parts, and maybe do limited custom adjustments such as trigger pull and such. You wouldn't be turning barrels or doing engraving or checkering or refinishing.

Most importantly, you'd know when to refer the customer to someone with more expertise. Having the wisdom -- and humility -- to apply that knowledge is something they can't teach you; I suspect that's the kind of "dangerous" that you meant.

This has me wondering about something else, though. Considering that with most such correspondence courses, you get a basic set of (cheap) tools to practice with, would you also get any actual gun parts to practice on? In order to do very much with that, you'd need to either buy guns out of your own pocket to work on, or get an FFL to buy (or receive) certain parts that the course may provide. Would the school perhaps give you non-firing replica parts? Maybe something to look in to.

As to engraving, my brother is a jeweler and does engraving from time to time, but he refuses to work on guns (and he's had requests; his work is beautiful). Interestingly, there are now CNC tools that do it.