Where do we draw the line between Liberty and Security?

[SolaScriptura139]

I've been kinda wondering about this little topic for a while. Then Koppel mentioned the question on the Discovery Channel the other night, and I wondered what you guys might think. Where do you think we should draw the line between liberty and security? (For one example, the right to privacy when going onto an airplane, cameras all over the place, big brother)

 

[EasternShore]

Can't say exactly, not for tin foil hat type reasons, I just don't have a good answer other than somewhere a lot closer to liberty and a lot futher from the supposed security we have now. Of course it would also involve a lot smaller government on every level. not anarchy, but a lot less government.

 

[FPrice]

When you start looking at everyone like they are a potential suspect, I fear that you have gone too far in the security aspect of this equation.

 

[OrvilleYertleson]

If you give me enough liberty I will look after my own security, thanks.

I don't see why they are in any way mutually exclusive so long as you are willing to take responsibility for yourself.

 

[longeyes]

Maybe the real problem is allowing a society to evolve where people don't understand liberty, lack self-control, and are innocent of the basic precepts of good citizenhood. Only in such a society can this question arise.

 

[hillbilly]

One of the problems I see is that because of a desire to conform to post-modern politically-correct multiculturalism, the security apparatus is applying the standard of "everyone is a potential terrorist" when quite obviously, everyone is not.

You don't see a lot of Baptists or Lithuanian Jews or Indian Hindus or Rastafarians or Australian Aborigines or Yanomamo Indians or 80-year-old Scots-Irish grandmothers strapping on suicide vests, or hijacking planes in the name of Allah or forcing western reporters to convert to certain religion at gun point, or chopping the heads off of infidels to make propaganda videos out the act or blowing up trains in London or Madrid.

Oh no!!! Not "profiling!!" No!!! We CAN'T DO THAT!!!!!!!!!!!



Everyone must be regarded as a potential terrorist!!!!!!!!!!!

It's the politically correct thing to do.

hillbilly

 

[Aguila Blanca]

I've been kinda wondering about this little topic for a while. Then Koppel mentioned the question on the Discovery Channel the other night, and I wondered what you guys might think. Where do you think we should draw the line between liberty and security? (For one example, the right to privacy when going onto an airplane, cameras all over the place, big brother)

WHAT right to privacy when boarding an airplane? In fact, what right to privacy? The Constitution does not enumerate a "right to privacy" -- it enumerates a right to be secure from "unreasonable" searches and seizures. Ain't no law saying you have to fly anywhere, so the argument can fairly be opened as to what degree of security check crosses the line from "reasonable search" to "unreasonable search," but there ain't no guaranteed right to privacy.

IMHO, I think the line was drawn approximately 230 years ago when a bunch of pretty smart dudes penned the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. That's the line. When gummint starts violating those documents and tells me it's for my "security," I feel awfully insecure.

 

[Standing Wolf]

The choice between liberty and security is like the choice between steak and red socks: ludicrous.

 

[Nio]

That's the big lie isn't it?

That you can't have both liberty AND security.

Stop believing the lie.

Nio

 

[Blackfork]

Liberty

I think every day each citizen is confronted with the choice between slavery and rebellion. So far, everyone pretty OK with slavery.

The majority of folks who are bothered, notice, or have any concern about this kind of stuff is folks like the people in this forum. Most folks, it's pretty much OK whatever the government wants. Seems to me that the knowledge and desire for liberty and freedom has left the building when it comes to the population as a whole. It's fun to embarrass politicians, and gig pundits and news media but basically, the American Experiment is over.

The Bush admin doesn't believe in it. The Democrats are actively hostile. The Repubs believe in the status quo and big government. Most people think liberty and freedom is a new car, central air conditioning, and light traffic between here and the mall. We are just kicking sand.

It's fun until they come get us. Richard Celera's wife just miscarried. They decided to come and get him. That's the future for hardheads.

IMHO, of course.

 

[MDMadrid]

IMHO, I think the line was drawn approximately 230 years ago when a bunch of pretty smart dudes penned the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. That's the line. When gummint starts violating those documents and tells me it's for my "security," I feel awfully insecure.

I could't agree with you more!!! We as Americans MUST stop the thinking that someone else has to look out for our well being, and take the responsibility ourselves. IMHO you should be responsible for yourself, your family, and nieghbors, and maybe your community. We cannot, should not, and will not depend on our government!!! If we could do this we would have a society where liberty and security would take care of themselves.

 

[ConstitutionCowboy]

Liberty and Security

You cannot have one without the other. You have no security if you don't have the liberty to provide security. If you don't have security, you have no liberty. We started with both in full force in this country, and each attack on our liberty has weakened our ability to provide for our security. Had there been at least one armed citizen on each of those planes on 09/11/2001, the NYC skyline might not have changed and even if all four planes crashed, not even a fourth of the people would have been murdered.

Woody

"The Right of the People to move about freely in a secure manner shall not be infringed. Any manner of self defense shall not be restricted, regardless of the mode of travel or where you stop along the way, as it is the right so enumerated at both the beginning and end of any journey." B.E.Wood

 

[crazed_ss]

You don't see a lot of Baptists or Lithuanian Jews or Indian Hindus or Rastafarians or Australian Aborigines or Yanomamo Indians or 80-year-old Scots-Irish grandmothers strapping on suicide vests, or hijacking planes in the name of Allah or forcing western reporters to convert to certain religion at gun point, or chopping the heads off of infidels to make propaganda videos out the act or blowing up trains in London or Madrid.

Should we also treat all blacks as potential criminals since blacks are disproportionately represented in the prison population?

Should we treat all Hispanics as potential illegals since the majority of illegals are coming from Mexico?

 

[Cousin Mike]

Simple answer, IMO...

We draw the line where security starts to trample on liberty.

 

[mnrivrat]

Should we also treat all blacks as potential criminals since blacks are disproportionately represented in the prison population?

Should we treat all Hispanics as potential illegals since the majority of illegals are coming from Mexico?

It is what it is - should we ignore the facts so as not to potentialy offend ?

Who was it that said if one would trade freedom for security they deserve neither ?

 

[Cousin Mike]

I just want to visit ONE thread today that doesn't go this direction... don't look like I'm gonna get my wish.

It is what it is - should we ignore the facts so as not to potentialy offend ?

So I guess by this logic, we should view all white people as racist because the Klan is 100% white?



Just stop it already.

Liberty and Security - not race and race relations, please.

 

[Soybomb]

If you really want to take it to the root, my complaint about camerars in public for me could go all the way to its not the government's job. I'd rather see airlines handle their own security also. I'll ride armed airlines and you ride body cavity search air if you wish. We're both happy.

I think every day each citizen is confronted with the choice between slavery and rebellion. So far, everyone pretty OK with slavery.

Isn't that a little overly dramatic? When michael moore movies can come out and be highly critical of the government (even if we all think he's a big liar) doesn't that mean we're still pretty far from slavery? I think we're much further from needing a rebellion than many on here fantasize about.

 

[Autolycus]

Basically as long as people are willing to tolerate a government that impedes their personal liberties, freedoms, rights, or what not in the name of security we will be impeding them. Until it personally affects most Americans they will tolerate it. It seems that people only stand up for their rights when it starts to impede them.

 

[mnrivrat]

So I guess by this logic, we should view all white people as racist because the Klan is 100% white?

By this logic it means that if the shoe fits - ignoring the facts won't change a thing. To use your statement above - if I am looking for a klan member I can probably ignore looking at blacks ? Or are there a lot of blacks in the klan ?

If a suspect robs a bank and is reported to be heading my way - discribed as a 300+ lb , 6 foot tall , white male --- how many 100 lb , 5 foot tall, black females do you want me to stop in order to not offend obese white males ?

How much time should we waste being politicaly correct , and how many facts should we ignore so that nobody can try to intimidate us by calling us racists ?

 

[progunner1957]

I think every day each citizen is confronted with the choice between slavery and rebellion. So far, everyone pretty OK with slavery.

The majority of folks who are bothered, notice, or have any concern about this kind of stuff is folks like the people in this forum. Most folks, it's pretty much OK whatever the government wants. Seems to me that the knowledge and desire for liberty and freedom has left the building when it comes to the population as a whole. It's fun to embarrass politicians, and gig pundits and news media but basically, the American Experiment is over.

The Bush admin doesn't believe in it. The Democrats are actively hostile. The Repubs believe in the status quo and big government. Most people think liberty and freedom is a new car, central air conditioning, and light traffic between here and the mall. We are just kicking sand.

It's fun until they come get us. Richard Celera's wife just miscarried. They decided to come and get him. That's the future for hardheads.

It's sad to say, but Blackfork is 100% correct. The American Sheeple have traded their birthright for bread and circuses.

The Founders must be spinning in their graves.

 

[Cousin Mike]

mnrivrat, believe me, I understand the logic and agree with it somewhat... It's not the issue I have a problem with, it's how out-of-place it is in this thread.. IMHO, of course. I'm just tired of the racial stuff. And I'm also tired of people advocating profiling.

Simply put, profiling people doesn't work, and it will never work...

Looking for a suspect that fits a description AFTER a crime has been committed is a completely different thing than profiling people based on race, religion, etc. - and that shouldn't be confused.

Funny, the only people calling for profiling are the ones who (by their own logic) shouldn't be profiled. They're also the people who have never been profiled in the past. It's BS. And walking around picking people up based on what they look like they MIGHT do is definitely not my idea of liberty OR security.

I don't want to live in a country like that. There's a reason profiling is not acceptable to the masses on the left or the right - and it has nothing to do with political correctness. OTOH, it has everything to do with living in a nation where people enjoy equal rights. Like the right not to be harassed because of what you look like, where you worship, or where you come from... among other things.

 

[crazed_ss]

Looking for a suspect that fits a description AFTER a crime has been committed is a completely different thing that profiling people based on race, religion, etc. - and that shouldn't be confused.

Exactly the point I've made before. When cops look for a young black male suspect or whatever, it's usually because a crime has been committed and they have a rough description of the suspect.

An Arab/Muslim getting on a plane is not suspected of any crime yet.

Funny, the only people calling for profiling are the ones (who by their own logic) shouldn't be profiled. They're also the people who have never been profiled in the past. It's BS. And walking around picking people up based on what they look like they MIGHT do is definitely not my idea of liberty OR security.

Once again I agree 100%. Being black, I'm very wary of thinking it OK to treat other different because of their ethnicity.

 

[xd9fan]

If you give me enough liberty I will look after my own security, thanks.

I don't see why they are in any way mutually exclusive so long as you are willing to take responsibility for yourself.

big time!

it all starts here at the individual level. Why? because the nation was founded on individual liberty, not based on the greatest good for the masses.

Freedom and Liberty are risky, but I'm an adult.....pretty sure I can handle it.



It will be a scary day when the people realize just how little Govt is really needed (and really works) versus how much they have.

 

[mnrivrat]

(For one example, the right to privacy when going onto an airplane, cameras all over the place, big brother)

I think that the original post was worded broad enough to have the issue at least in the same ballpark. I was also commenting on a previous comment made regarding the profiling issue , not bringing it forward as a primary topic theme - just as you also have done.

Going forward to far into that aspect of the issue however may not be in the spirit or best interest of the topic and I think we agree on that - so I will simply leave this topic by saying I believe profiling can and does work if used properly - it is in fact used all the time in my opinion but factors are more complex than simply race , religion, etc.

 

[Cousin Mike]

I'll also leave this topic alone... and simply say in closing that I believe intelligence works better for the liberty AND security of the American people than profiling does.

FWIW, I think RACE is out of topic in this thread... Not the subject of profiling in general. But, as promised, I'm making my point and shutting up.

Back to boxing for me for a while...