Where do you store ammo? How safe is it?

[firesafety3]

Hey guys. I chimed in last week on a thread discussing some hazards, recognized and some not so visible, for firefighters.

One thing we ran into during structure fires was ammunition stored in various places, garages, tool rooms, gun cabinets, closets, etc. We're down here in the south and have quite a few hunters and sport shooters. We expected to find ammo in the gun cabinet in the living room, game room, etc.

Reloading stations pose a serious hazard for firefighters during structure fires.
I guess the point is to minimize so many storage locations. We have found cartridges burned black that did not detonate, but we have experienced some dangerous situations.

My personal experience is that the actual bullet won't fire from the cartridge, but the casing fires away from the bullet, due to weight differences. This causes a weird whirring sound if the casing is airborne.

We've also found handguns and rifles that are burned but the cartridges are intact. Shotgun shells seem to flare then dissipate.

Try to limit the number of locations that ammo and supplies are stored and if there ever is a fire, let the firefighters know. Same thing with medical oxygen bottles, bleach tablets (pool use), etc.

 

[TallPine]

So it's preferable to have it all it one place making a big bang instead of a bunch of little bangs .....???

 

[firesafety3]

Well if the structure is totally involved, guys probably won't enter. But if the guys arrive and you say, "I have a good bit of ammo in the cedar chest under this window in this room.", the firefighters will direct attention on that area. Or if that area is totally involved, may choose to keep a wall between them and that specific area for safety.

We've had MVC with the vehicle totally involved with shotgun shells under the seat or in the back toolbox start flaring off. Obviously in most of these cases the driver is off the scene (some cases still on the scene but unable to communicate any hazards: gas can in back of truck/trunk of car, etc.).

 

[Dave R]

Good point, firesafety. Thanks.

I had all my ammo & reloading stuff in one room, kinda by accident. Will consolidate so there's only one "problem" area to watch out for.

 

[jamz]

Interesting. I'll keep that in mind. Right now, my "gun room" is the furnace room, because it was the only place I could bolt the safe into the wall. I reload in there too, (yes, I reload in the only room in my house that regularly produces flame from time to time) but store the primers and powder in the garage, away from the furnace. I'll have to think how to change this.

-James

 

[TallPine]

By the time the structure folks got here from town, it would be too late for my house anyway.

I'm on my local rural VFD, but we don't do structure entries at all - strictly wildland fire and "stand-off" structure protection. Like the South, ALL houses in this area are assumed to have ammo in them.

I doubt that I could even find all my ammo right now, since I have squirreled it away in so many places.

 

[M2 Carbine]

Been there, done that

My gun shop burned to the ground with 25 to 30 thousand rounds inside, many cans of smokeless powder, many thousand primers, 7 guns, etc, etc.

It was very interesting.

A can of 9mm that was about 15 feet from the fire and what's left of a Ruger MK 1



All that's left of the shop.



Don't let anyone tell you smokeless powder is dangerous.
IT DOES NOT BLOW UP. Note the powder cans in the center.

BUT Black powder and WD 40 is another thing. It does blow up violently. Note the cans on left top and right ends.
Also note the bullet hole in the bottom center can.
There were many bullet holes in metal and 50 cal ammo cans.
Most ammo may just burst almost harmlessly but some may, and did, burst with enough force to penetrate steel ammo cans and other things.

 

[Vic303]

Ammo is stored in a large heavy steel locked cabinet. Powder is stored in an old locked stack-On style gun safe. While neither is fireproof, both should contain any detonations and likely limit the fueling of any existing fire.

 

[M2 Carbine]

Vic, the worst thing you can do with powder is confine it. The cans are made to pop the top or bottom and the powder will just burn. That's why they tell you to keep the powder in the original container.
If you confine it, it will very possibly explode.

 

[warrior23]

I store mt ammo in ammo cans,I believe they were designed so that if pressure builds up the lid will break loose,my powder is stored in a old refrigerator,seals out the moisture but will also pop open under extreme pressure.

 

[firesafety3]

TallPine- Thanks for your service!

Mr. Carbine- You are correct in pointing out the differences in the powder. Sorry you sustained such a loss. I would assume the local FD didn't try to make entry on your gunshop! Not much that can be done at that point.

 

[M2 Carbine]

"store mt ammo in ammo cans,I believe they were designed so that if pressure builds up the lid will break loose"
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I also recommend 50 cal ammo boxes for storage. By the time it get to the point where the inclosed ammo will burst you will be out of the area or fried yourself.
I don't recall any lids popped open, except where the whole can was pretty much popped open.

The cans will also provide protection for the fireman, etc.
The cans did funny things.
Some had not one hole, even though all the ammo inside burst, while others looked like this.




firesafety3,
by the time the fireman got there the building was too far gone. I told them to work on stopping the fire spreading across the field and I and my Wife would try to stop the spread from the building.

 

[brickeyee]

The NRA has addressed the ammunition fire problem repeatedly over the years. It takes a long and hot fire to heat powder to the kindling point (the mass of the bullets absorb a huge amount of heat). If the ammunition does start to 'cook off' the case ruptures before enough pressure is developed to propel the bullet anywhere. The pieces of brass case that may fly around are not capable of penetrating a standard turnout coat.
Welding tanks (or other high pressure compressed gas tanks) are a far larger hazard than ammunition.
A loaded weapon is very dangerous in a fore. If enough heat reaches a cartridge in the chamber, it will fire the weapon with exactly the same effect as if the trigger was pulled. Theritcailly a semi auto could fire more thna once, but it is pretty unlikely. The cartridges in a magazine will likely have cooked off well before the round in the chamber. A revolver cylinder can provide enough confinement to create high velocity projectiles.
Smokeless powder should be stored in a cabinet with a 'weak wall'; to avoid the buildup of pressure.

 

[M2 Carbine]

"If the ammunition does start to 'cook off' the case ruptures before enough pressure is developed to propel the bullet anywhere. The pieces of brass case that may fly around are not capable of penetrating a standard turnout coat."
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This is a good theory that is true most of the time.
I believed it before my fire.

But I have far too many bullet holes in metal to believe it anymore.

There were some holes that show the bullet had to go through, at least, the steel ammo box, a paneled insulated wall and the tin building siding.
No, these bullets were not from loaded guns in the shop. None of the 7 guns there were loaded.

My theory is some of the rounds were confined enough that they couldn't harmlessly burst but burst with a great deal of pressure.

It can be seen from the first picture that those 9mm rounds burst with a lot of force to blow a hole that big in that ammo box.

 

[Vic303]

M2, my 'powder locker' is just that, an 8gun longarm steel safe. Not a heavywalled thing, one of the 120$ ones from Walmart. The door isn't tight, it has lagbolt holes in it, etc. The powder is more confined in it's original 1lb can than in that safe. Besides, IIRC the fed storage rules require some sort of steel cabinet that locks (I think) if you have over a certain weight of powder in your posession.

 

[warrior23]

I read somewhere that the military ammo cans were designed so if pressure built up the lid would pop open,as long as the non hinge side and top was exposed,but looking at those pictures makes me wonder if this is really true

 

[Sam]

Warrior23,
What you read was wrong. Do not store powder or primers in those ammo cans.

Storage of powder and primers is best covered in the little pamphlet inside your favorite freebie reloading manual, the insert printed on the green paper.


Sam

 

[R.H. Lee]

I keep all my ammo out in a wooden shed along with the C4 and dynamite, under a shake roof. It is surrounded by tall weeds and brush to keep it hidden.

Just kidding. SWMBO was married to a fire captain and she's very fire conscious. Ammo is stored safely in a cool dry place away from any sources of ignition. House is stucco with a mission tile roof. We keep a 100yd defensible area around the house. All smoke detectors are fully operational with battery backups. There is a fire extinguisher. Life is good.

 

[M2 Carbine]

Vic, I understand.
I'm just kind of guessing my way here.

I would think that having several cans of powder in something like a 50 cal ammo can might contain it enough to blow but I'm not going to try it.

In my fire the powder cans, except the black powder, was in a Styrofoam container and the cans just popped their top or bottom.


warrior23,
I dug out a picture I took right after the fire of some of the 50 cal ammo boxes.
The boxes with the yellow circles are the old type boxes that opened from the side. As you can see 2 of 3 did blow the lid. (I didn't remember that)
The Red circle new style end opening boxes bid not blow the lids.
There were more boxes there and I don't remember if any end opening boxes popped the lid, but I don't think so.

Note the 2 bullet holes in the yellow circle of the left box (there were more) and the damaged condition of the box.
Even though the lid did open it appeared there was a lot of action going on before the lid popped.

I'm not trying to make a point one way or the other.
Just showing you all what happened.

 

[Vic303]

M2, the safe I use for my powder locker is about 4 foot tall, 20" wide & 10" deep. Oh, and I now remember the makers name properly--it's a Homak. There's still plenty of room inside it, and like I said earlier, it's not a 'tight' box.
--Vic

 

[M2 Carbine]

Vic, again I'm just guessing but I don't think that would be enough confinement to cause those powder cans to do more than pop the tops in a full blown fire.

Now I guarantee a can or two of black powder will blow your safe.